discussion-"you can't protect your hand"

SingleMaltFan · #1 (**permalink**) 08-08-2006, 09:37 AM

I was having a discussion today with someone, comparing Nl to Limit pay..

the statement was again made "you can always protect your hand in NL"...

I am thinking this is an overused statement, that low-limit rookies make in limit..

I want to hear your opinions on this line, i maybe wrong about they way i am thinking about this but i think they say it for these two reasons:

a. they play too loose in limit by playing to many starting hands..

then they feel compelled to

b. chase too many drawing hands..because of the second most overused excuse:
"it is often correct to call"

sure it is correct, but should you have been chasing in the first place?
dont ge me worng i like when these players are in my game, but dont use these excuses when complaining about why you think NL is a better game....

btw..personally i like both games, one is not "better" than the other...

lets hear it..am i wrong on this (quite possibly true!)
1malt

hachkc · #2 (**permalink**) 08-08-2006, 10:02 AM

Another phrase I've heard that I don't like is:

"NL is the only true form of poker left."

Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't people been playing limit for almost as long if not longer. I grew up playing limit poker as did a bunch of folks that have been playing poker for more than 5 years. In my world, NL is actually a relatively new thing (last 3-4 years).

There is an old post at HPT that discusses this topic. There was one comment that Limit is 80% luck while NL is 80% skill which I found ludicrous. Sounds like the person can't win at limit.

Personally, they are both fine games but what is unique about them is that the rules are almost identical but the approach to them can be quite different.

jojobinks · #3 (**permalink**) 08-08-2006, 10:05 AM

it's more often correct to chase in limit, this is true. that being said, a game full of loose/passives is extremely beatable, and once you come to terms with the conditions of the game, it's kinda hard to be frustrated by it anymore.

sshe purty well outlines how it's done.

Strange · #4 (**permalink**) 08-08-2006, 10:15 AM

There's a point in sshe that goes something like:

Don't bet here trying to protect your hand, since it would be correct for player b to call given the pot odds. You should CHECK here with the expectation that player b will bet, allowing you to raise. Although it would have been correct to call a single bet, player b (who is aggresive?) will mistakenly call two bets in total, when there are not the correct odds to do so.

I may have that slightly wrong, but I know that when I read it, it occurred to me that there were circumstances in limit that made it possible to protect your hand, even if they weren't completely obvious (to an idiot like me).

i DO know that i really enjoy limit and I'm slowly buidling my stack back up playing micro limit and trying to follow the principles in sshe.

i always start by asking all the other players what player types they are so that i can match the game up with the examples in the book.

SingleMaltFan · #5 (**permalink**) 08-08-2006, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jojobinks

sshe purty well outlines how it's done.

as long as i am beating them, i will keep this book in my shelf and not loan it out...

i try and try to tell a friend he should read this book, but he turns his head and changes the subject...but every time we go to foxwoods together, he leaves short and i dont...he makes excuses! oh well..(btw not the same person involved int he op discussion..he wouldnt know the term "protect your hand anyway")

SingleMaltFan · #6 (**permalink**) 08-08-2006, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange

i always start by asking all the other players what player types they are so that i can match the game up with the examples in the book.

and they answer you?

jojobinks · #7 (**permalink**) 08-08-2006, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange

There's a point in sshe that goes something like:

Don't bet here trying to protect your hand, since it would be correct for player b to call given the pot odds. You should CHECK here with the expectation that player b will bet, allowing you to raise. Although it would have been correct to call a single bet, player b (who is aggresive?) will mistakenly call two bets in total, when there are not the correct odds to do so.

well, two things could happen there. if you check in EP, and you get a bet from LP, you squeeze the middle guys for two bets (which could possibly offer poor odds). if you get a bet immediately on your left, you can then choose to raise for value.

either way is fine.

uncleto · #8 (**permalink**) 08-08-2006, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SingleMaltFan

I was having a discussion today with someone, comparing Nl to Limit pay..

the statement was again made "you can always protect your hand in NL"...

I am thinking this is an overused statement, that low-limit rookies make in limit..

I want to hear your opinions on this line, i maybe wrong about they way i am thinking about this but i think they say it for these two reasons:

a. they play too loose in limit by playing to many starting hands..

then they feel compelled to

b. chase too many drawing hands..because of the second most overused excuse:
"it is often correct to call"

sure it is correct, but should you have been chasing in the first place?
dont ge me worng i like when these players are in my game, but dont use these excuses when complaining about why you think NL is a better game....

btw..personally i like both games, one is not "better" than the other...

lets hear it..am i wrong on this (quite possibly true!)
1malt

This is mostly true. It is much harder, and often impossible, to "protect" your hand in limit than in no-limit. It's also impossible to tackle the opposing point guard in order to force a turnover, yet this is not given as a reason football is better than basketball. Adjust to the rules, or don't play (or play and give me your money).

Don't bother defending the game to those who want to complain about it either. Limit poker will not be offended. The game abides. And continues to be played as the big game throughout Vegas and the world.

imthatguy · #9 (**permalink**) 08-08-2006, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange

i always start by asking all the other players what player types they are so that i can match the game up with the examples in the book.

Yeah, me too. Most times they don't have to reply for me to figure it out.

Jambine · #10 (**permalink**) 08-08-2006, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hachkc

Another phrase I've heard that I don't like is:

"NL is the only true form of poker left."

Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't people been playing limit for almost as long if not longer. I grew up playing limit poker as did a bunch of folks that have been playing poker for more than 5 years. In my world, NL is actually a relatively new thing (last 3-4 years).......

True. I don’t think I ever saw a NL game (other than tourney) until a few years ago. I’ve played limit poker since I was a kid. I actually prefer pot-limit to any other cash game, but I’m happy to play limit.

As far as the comment "NL is the only true form of poker left", well, people just need to expand their horizons a bit. That is almost certainly from someone doesn’t play much of any other game. A great recommendation to anyone looking to improve their hold-em game is to learn (and get good at) other forms, 5, 6 & 7cs, Omaha, even draw poker.

EDIT: From an old fart, and just for the record. The ultimate cash game is pot-limit, 7 card stud.