[WolfPack]

I don't play NL cash games, only limit, and I have had no problem walking away ahead.
While you can't push off someone with a strong draw, you can push off those with the weak draw.
If some one is 4 to the flush after the flop they are calling a bet, but after the turn if you can check raise or re-raise the chaser will sometimes fold and a weaker drawing hand than that will often fold (gutshot straight ect.).
I think the people who camplain most about limit are the ones who just don't know when to fold it down. They see the 4 spades on the board but just can't put down the kings as for the ones who chase everything, they have are more likely to miss the flush than they are of busting your 2 pair. SO a beat every now and then is made up for by solid play.
The main reason I think some people don't like limit is because it's hard to bluff, you can't be real loose and win much you have to have a solid game.

[hachkc]

Originally Posted by Jambine

A great recommendation to anyone looking to improve their hold-em game is to learn (and get good at) other forms, 5, 6 & 7cs, Omaha, even draw poker.

EDIT: From an old fart, and just for the record. The ultimate cash game is pot-limit, 7 card stud.

We very, very rarely play 5CS or 6CS anymore but I used to play them a lot. We still play a good amount of 7CS & variants (h/l, razz, hi/lo chicago). We play a lot of Omaha and in our cash games LO8 is probably the most popular game followed by HE or 7CS.

PL 7CS, that sounds like a scary game. I've never played 7CS in any other format than limit though sometimes a spread limit. The only thing that could be tougher than that is probably PL 7CS H/L; for the truly masochistic poker player.

[OnTheButton]

I'm finding more and more that people really don't know the true value of their hands.

Sure give someone AA, KK or QQ and they know they have something solid, but I've been totally amazed lately at the casinos what other types of hands people think are "great cards" to call raises with, or even to push back with.

I'm seeing more aggression and "protecting" of hands like: A 10o, K 9s, Q 10s, 4 4, 5 5, etc. When to me these hands are marginal at best (pre flop), and really only played or pushed from the right position or opportunity, not the quality of hands for pushing back with.

I don't know if this has to do with poker on TV and the fact that they edit 8 hours of play into 60 minutes with commercials, and people are seeing professionals "make moves" with below average hands to take the win, and are missing the 15 other hands they stole the pot with monsters...

But I've seen it more and more recently and don't quite know what to make of it.

[WolfPack]

Originally Posted by OnTheButton

I'm finding more and more that people really don't know the true value of their hands.

Sure give someone AA, KK or QQ and they know they have something solid, but I've been totally amazed lately at the casinos what other types of hands people think are "great cards" to call raises with, or even to push back with.

I'm seeing more aggression and "protecting" of hands like: A 10o, K 9s, Q 10s, 4 4, 5 5, etc. When to me these hands are marginal at best (pre flop), and really only played or pushed from the right position or opportunity, not the quality of hands for pushing back with.

I don't know if this has to do with poker on TV and the fact that they edit 8 hours of play into 60 minutes with commercials, and people are seeing professionals "make moves" with below average hands to take the win, and are missing the 15 other hands they stole the pot with monsters...

But I've seen it more and more recently and don't quite know what to make of it.

I agree OTB, and I think it is poker on TV. You see the final table and someone going all in with 44 so people who aren't serious about the game think it must be a great hand. I lay small hands following Lederers advice "geat in for cheap and see if you hit the flop". So many people make huge raises with any pair pre flop nowadays .

[Quads]

I found this / read this some time back and it slays me every time, so I thought I'd drop it here. Quote: "Limit is like the girl next door, taking patience and time to win over, while No Limit is her sexier, sluttier sister that everyone wants to play with."

I'll likely get flamed for this, but here goes: (I hope i don't get flamed....)

IMO:
People that say you can't protect your hand at limit don't understand the game itself. Yes, at low limit / structured betting ($1/2, $2/4, $3/6, etc.) there is little to no pain in calling 2, 3, or even 4 bets with a very marginal hand at best. So this is a rather frequent occurrence (unfortunantly). People coming into pots with marginal hands that outdraw premium hands and see flops with 3 and 4 bets to them. The pain point of getting in the hand, then later losing the hand at $2/4 simply isn't great enough. The thrill of winning the hand, outweighs the prior.... at those particular stakes.

There is quite a bit of protection that you play into your hand and game when you play at higher limits (mid limit poker). Say something around $15/30 or $20/40 and above. Calling $8 with 8/10s in late position is totally different at a $2/4 table, where as trying to see a flop with 8/10s when it's $60 or $80 to go, and there is still a player(s) behind you. 99% of the time, you simply don't do it. In a limit game, you simply don't put yourself in that position.

Making it 3 bets in early position or jacking it from a later seat will protect your hand in a $15/30 game is a completely different story, which it happens all the time, and works. Why? because in a $2/4 game, it's $50 or $60 buck to buy in to the game. The pressure point of pain isn't great, for most people. In a $20/40 game, it's $1500 to reload. That is a pain point that can be translated across several levels of players.

There is also a different level of player at $2/4 versus $10/20. Someone who wants to play $2/4 is more looking at it from a good time, social, friends, buddies, etc. It's a hundred buck for a good nights of entertainment, and perhaps a little profit. The persons objective when sitting down at a $2/4 table isn't "I'm here to make a mortgage payment". The guy that sits down at the $15/30 game with 3 racks of red ($1500) isn't there to entertain himself. He's looking to grind out a profit and capitalize on his strengths and exploit other's weaknesses.

Limit has long since been played. Long before No Limit hit mainstream. Try finding a "No Limit game" in most ANY casino or Vegas for that matter, 6 or 7 years ago. They simply didn't exist as they do today, which is just about every corner has a NL game going. Prior to this, is was Limit, 7CS, Omaha, etc.

So, I agree, at $2/4, you usually can't protect your hand.

[SingleMaltFan]

Originally Posted by Quads

I found this / read this some time back and it slays me every time, so I thought I'd drop it here. Quote: "Limit is like the girl next door, taking patience and time to win over, while No Limit is her sexier, sluttier sister that everyone wants to play with."



So, I agree, at $2/4, you usually can't protect your hand.

love the quote..

i never said i didnt agree that you cannot protect your hand, but i find i usally dont find myself in that situation, because i play a tight pre-flop game, and get approriatly aggressive (while staying tight, a la sshe) post flop..maybe you cant protect it, but should you find yourself in a situation to have to so often..
if it is cheap enough to call 3-4 bets with marginals, then it should be cheap enough (if not cheaper) to fold and wait for the next hand, right?, unless you are in it for the thrill of gambling and hitting yor gutshot/longshot draws...

[Quads]

Originally Posted by SingleMaltFan

if it is cheap enough to call 3-4 bets with marginals, then it should be cheap enough (if not cheaper) to fold and wait for the next hand, right? . . . .

That's how you and I think of it, yes, but often others don't see it that way.

[Jambine]

Originally Posted by Quads

...... So, I agree, at $2/4, you usually can't protect your hand.

Got to agree, it is almost impossible to protect your hand in a limit game. Best you can do is be patient, bet for value when you can, and look forward to the extra “dead money” bets on the pots you do win.

[smoore]

IMO, it's more of a misapplication of the concept of "Protecting your hand." Protecting your hand doesn't mean making draws fold, it means making them take the worst of it. That's where you get the check/raise concept to protect a hand... YOU know that it's going to be two bets to see the next card but no one else does. Therefore, you check, get a bet from the left, everyone calls (even someone over on the next table) and then you raise. You have protected your hand as best you can. You planned on having everyone play for two bets, not one. They didn't know this and made a mistake because of it.

[SingleMaltFan]

Originally Posted by smoore

IMO, it's more of a misapplication of the concept of "Protecting your hand." Protecting your hand doesn't mean making draws fold, it means making them take the worst of it. That's where you get the check/raise concept to protect a hand... YOU know that it's going to be two bets to see the next card but no one else does. Therefore, you check, get a bet from the left, everyone calls (even someone over on the next table) and then you raise. You have protected your hand as best you can. You planned on having everyone play for two bets, not one. They didn't know this and made a mistake because of it.

fine application of the fundamental theorem of poker i must say, well done, sklansky et al would be proud (tone: honest sincerity)

1malt