[hachkc]

Originally Posted by dad604

Actually, O8 has a higher variance, it just seems lower due to the fact that play is slower.

Why would you say O8 has a higher variance? I'm not disagreeing but because of the split pot nature, I would think the variance would be lower. That being said, its possible to "win" a pot and still lose money. Even if you get half, the rake can eat the all or some of the profits if there is little or no dead money in the pot.

[Poboy]

Originally Posted by dad604

Actually, O8 has a higher variance, it just seems lower due to the fact that play is slower.

If you play it well, there's is little variance. You'll be playing pots drawing to scoop and mostly drawing to nut lows. If you're not drawing to at least the nut low (if there is one), there's usually not much reason to be in the pot. It's rare to be the victim of a bad beat - even if someone outdraws your high hand, he rarely also outdraws your low hand.


smoore, it's been awhile since I've been to cardplayer's forum on account of their clusterf**k of an upgrade, but search their Omaha forum for posts by a guy named 'fritzmania'. He's not there anymore either, but if CP didn't screw up their archived posts, he has a lot of good information.

[mreich]

Originally Posted by smoore

OK, from the discussion in my other omaha thread it's pretty obvious I'm clueless.

So... from what I understand about O8 starting hand strategy:

All four cards should work together, or work together in groups of twos.
You usually want an A2.
You like double suited aces. Double suited kings go WAY down in value.
Large wraps are good.
Small wraps are somewhat good.
Middle card hands (including wraps) should always be discarded.

I understand a wrap to be a four-straight hand, sometimes with one gap. Is this correct?

Are A3s hands playable as long as the other two have some connection? How about A4s? How about offsuit?

How do these hands change in value in the context of differen't stakes at 'stars? How do they change in value when you move from limit to PL to NL?

Also, how is Omaha played in casinos? Limit, PL, NL? Does this change as the stakes change?

Thanks in advance.

Keep in mind I am no expert, but my rambling view is ..

AA23 double suited would be your strongest hand. Followed closely by AA23 with one A suited. A3s or A4s are also generally good starting hands.

I think a big key to remember is that 'middle cards', which you correctly discard, include more than in hold'em, including JJ and somtimes QQ in PL. If you can see the next card really cheap or free they are ok, but tend to have little value unless well connected to the flop.

Also be careful with A K 3 2 or similar low cards, double suited. I have seen a lot of people hit the K flush and follow it all the way to the river only to loose to the A flush. With a full table and the A not on the board, it is likely to be in play if there is aggressive betting.

According to Helmuth in 'play poker like the pros' the top 10 are:
1 AA23
2 AA2x
3 AA3x
4 A234
5 A23x (supposedly wins part of the pot %40 of the time, but you can win part of the pot and still lose due to rake and quartering))
6 A2KK, A2QQ ( not sure I'd put queens in here)
7 A345
8 AA45, AAxx
9 A2KQ, A2KJ, A2xx
10 A3KK

[bolgenmod]

Just want to chime in here with semi-related advice -- if you are looking for a lower variance bankroll builder smoore, you might want to try some low-limit stud. I play some .25/.50 (sometime lower, sometime higher), and the players are absolutely terrible. I am by no means a great or very experienced stud player, but I find that merely by playing tight I do very well. I usually manage to double my $10 buy-in in very little time (an hour or two). If you haven't already done so, I would check it out. (BTW, I play mostly at P*. The antes and bring-in at Party are higher than P*, but the players are even worse, so many people say that Party is also profitable.)

[w16227]

As for the variance, this is a game that will have a lot of swings when playing at a loose table. It is just that you will notice them less than in HE. This is a true statement.

Basically, you will be chasing a lot more in O8 than in HE. If you play decent starting hands, most flops will hit you in some what so that you need to continue. Sometimes, you need to bet the strong draws to build the pot. The problem is, draws miss or are counterfeited. so you invested a lot in a failed pot. The split pot mode makes this a LOT more expensive than in HE, since you have double the ways to win/lose/tie a hand. BUT - when you hit a hand, it pays. So the jumps per hand (both up and down) are much greater in O8. The split pot quality as well as slower dealing lessen the blow, but it is still painful to miss that 28 outer.

Other comments - I do not remember the exact source (I believe it was Cardplayer), but I did read that PL O8 is an online invention (NL O8 definitely is). Most casinos do not spread it.

Supposedly, the most profitable game (against weaker players) is Stud8. Much like O8, jumping up the learning curve gives you a big advantage over the field. Add to that the fact that split pats are more rare, and the money just falls your way. OK - not that easy, but according to Ray Zee (split pot expert) this is true.

[smoore]

Well, I'm getting better.

I made a couple folds today that were borderline decisions and given the action could have gone either way. I would have dragged a huge pot with the 3-way capped for three streets hand (sigh) and a moderate 3-way with another. Managed to sit in a 1/2 game on 'stars today until it broke 20 hands later, play seemed tighter than .50/1 but not by much and the postflop play seemed just as bad, if not a little worse.

I watched a 5/10 game and HOLY GOD! Some horrible play even there. Time to roll up a stake and practice, practice, practice.

I'm busy reading Ken Warren's "Winner's Guide to Omaha" and will read the 08 section in SS2 next. What's after that?

[the_ozmeister]

The key to being a successful split pot player is entering the with the intention of SCOOPING as often as possible.

That being said, the ACE is the KEY card in Omaha 8 because it offers useful high and low possibilities and you should rarely see a flop without one.

Also, it is important to hold a deuce or a trey ideally with a third wheel card so that your low hand isn't counterfitted when you pair one of your low cards on the flop.

Look for useful high combinations such as suited Aces. Even smaller suited cards offer useful backup and will often produce a surprise scoop come the river.

Finally, always remember that playing or chasing for half the pot is rarely profitable unless you hold an unbeatable nut high with lots of action.

Hope this helps.

[kaiser10]

There's Winning Omaha 8 poker by Mark Tenner and Lou Krieger and High-Low-Split Poker for Advanced Players by Ray Zee (about seven card stud and O8 ). Both are good.

O8 is a great game to learn because there are so many fish. Just keep in mind it's about scooping pots. Too many people run into trouble when they only have a good shot for high or low and no chance for the other side. Of course there are times when it's profitable winning half the pot, but scooping is the goal.

EDIT: Oops, didn't see above post. But it bears repeating! GL.

[the_ozmeister]

I think that the advice in SS2 along with that you have already read will enable you to make good inroads into looser-type lower-limit Omaha 8 games. There is no substitute for playing good hands, and you are likely to find similar information in most of the books you pick up. Remember, against poor players at any limit, be it 1-2 or 100-200, the strategy is almost always the same.

I think the biggest skill you will learn through experience is when to throw away strong hands on the flop, such as the nut low draw when you have no high possibilities, and when there is a lot of action and you believe you are only drawing to quarter. Knowing your opponents tendencies will help a lot and being able to recognise the strength of their hand is important. Do they have the nut low-draw too or do they have a weaker low-draw than me ?
Also, you may start to recognise situations where you can manufacture ways to scoop the pot. Consider the following situation where you are up against 2 other players, one whom you believe has either the nut or the same low as yourself, and a second opponent who only likes to stay in a pot with a strong hand and shys away from big pots with marginal hands:

Flop: 4-7h-8h-Kd

You: A-3-K-5

If the tight, scared player bets this flop and the second opponent raises, you may consider re-raising in order to force out the initial better who is likely to have a better high hand than you, so that you can play heads up with a hand which has a good chance of winning more than half of the pot.

Of course, these plays rely on sound knowledge of your opponents but I believe this skill is the key to increasing your profits in Omaha 8 games, again with the emphasis on scooping the pot. You must constantly be looking for ways to end up in more profitable situations. In the above example, there may be situations where you are certain to fold, knowing that you have no chance to win either portion of the pot, and others, given the right opponents and situation, where you may be able to manufacture a +EV situation.

Keeping detailed notes about how your opponents play different hands and situations is invaluable, as this may enable you to profit from situations such as those above. Of course, these plays must always be used with caution and infrequently. The added bonus of mixing up your play in this manner is that your opponents will be unable to determine whether or not you are raising on a steal or whether you have a monster hand, assuming you play both situations in the same fashion.

As you become more confident with the game, you will be able to start rerunning hands in your head and analysing ways in which you can gain an edge over your opponents. I believe that once you make this transition, your game will gain far more depth.

Once again, hope this helps.

[dad604]

Originally Posted by hachkc

Why would you say O8 has a higher variance? I'm not disagreeing but because of the split pot nature, I would think the variance would be lower. That being said, its possible to "win" a pot and still lose money. Even if you get half, the rake can eat the all or some of the profits if there is little or no dead money in the pot.

w16227 to the rescue....

quote from w16227's post

As for the variance, this is a game that will have a lot of swings when playing at a loose table. It is just that you will notice them less than in HE. This is a true statement.

Basically, you will be chasing a lot more in O8 than in HE. If you play decent starting hands, most flops will hit you in some what so that you need to continue. Sometimes, you need to bet the strong draws to build the pot. The problem is, draws miss or are counterfeited. so you invested a lot in a failed pot. The split pot mode makes this a LOT more expensive than in HE, since you have double the ways to win/lose/tie a hand. BUT - when you hit a hand, it pays. So the jumps per hand (both up and down) are much greater in O8. The split pot quality as well as slower dealing lessen the blow, but it is still painful to miss that 28 outer.

unquote

I am happy that someone can explain it much better than me. I am the type of players that bets/raise/folds/etc. on odds round off to general numbers, not exact odds and the same goes for general statements as above. I know it is true but it is hard for me to explain. W is an engineer and his explanation is very well broken down to the last decimal places. I am the type of guy that "CLOSE" is good enough.