[__JR__]

Okay, here you are the hero. What is your move? Some of you may remember this hand.


Saw Flop | Saw Turn | Saw River | Saw Showdown | Won

PokerStars Game #5625846391: Tournament #28357783, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2006/07/20 - 21:58:52 (ET)
Table '28357783 2' 9-max Seat #9 is the button

SB - t1560
BB - t1090
UTG - t1380
UTG+1 - t5410
MP1 - t705
MP2 - t1220
MP3 - t2100
HERO - t1125

PREFLOP Level II (15/30)
HERO is Button with Q Q
1 fold, UTG+1 raises t60 to t90, 2 folds, MP3 calls t90, HERO raises t180 to t270, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls t180, 1 fold.

FLOP t675 (2 players)
A 2 K
UTG+1 checks Hero (???????)

[jojobinks]

this is why you don't reraise with QQ.

call preflop. then lead out the flop. .

now? check. bet the turn if he checks to you again. if he bets the turn, you fold.

[yeltzen]

Check. If you bet, they either fold if they can't beat a pair of queens, or call/raise if they can. There's no value in betting the flop, unless you want to pretend you're betting a draw, in which case no one will believe you.

[_GUN_]

FLOP t675 (2 players)
A 2 K
UTG+1 checks Hero (???????)

I might be missing some information, but I'm confused...

it seems you both are suggesting in a raised & reraised pre-flop hand, that with A K 2 flop and a flush possibility, he shouldn't follow through on the flop with a bet?

he has position and he's reraised pre-flop, shouldn't AKx flop be the kind of flop he would connect with?

I would like to be filled in...

[trutan]

Originally Posted by _GUN_

FLOP t675 (2 players)
A 2 K
UTG+1 checks Hero (???????)

I might be missing some information, but I'm confused...

it seems you both are suggesting in a raised & reraised pre-flop hand, that with A K 2 flop and a flush possibility, he shouldn't follow through on the flop with a bet?

he has position and he's reraised pre-flop, shouldn't AKx flop be the kind of flop he would connect with?

I would like to be filled in...

I think what was suggested is that he should have just called the preflop raise rather than re-raising it to 270. He then could wait to see what hit the flop and proceed accordingly.

Since he re-raised preflop and UTG+1 checks an A K 2 flop, he should bet out to see where he stands. If UTG+1 raises, he must lay it down.

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by trutan

Since he re-raised preflop and UTG+1 checks an A K 2 flop, he should bet out to see where he stands. If UTG+1 raises, he must lay it down.

i did mean that preflop. and i do mean check now.

you started with only 1125 chips. you spent 270 on your reraise, so you now have 850. the pot is 675.

the smallest your bet can possibly be is 350, but a bet that size is bad for a few reasons:

1. utg +2 is more likely than usual to be trapping on a flop like that. you have so few chips left that he'd be SURE to checkraise here with a good A.
2. it leaves you with only 500 chips, which screws you
3. the half pot bet with so few chips left looks weak.
4. it means you put in 600/1100 of your stack into the pot on a hand that rates to not be the best.
5. there are plenty of players out there that would check call here with something like KQ or KJ. you see...he doesn't need a monster to cripple you here.

so no, you didn't misunderstand me. you should check down the flop, and then consider stabbing at the turn.

i know it sucks. but that's the situation we put ourselves in.

[trutan]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

i did mean that preflop. and i do mean check now.

you started with only 1125 chips. you spent 270 on your reraise, so you now have 850. the pot is 675.

the smallest your bet can possibly be is 350, but a bet that size is bad for a few reasons:

1. utg +2 is more likely than usual to be trapping on a flop like that. you have so few chips left that he'd be SURE to checkraise here with a good A.
2. it leaves you with only 500 chips, which screws you
3. the half pot bet with so few chips left looks weak.
4. it means you put in 600/1100 of your stack into the pot on a hand that rates to not be the best.
5. there are plenty of players out there that would check call here with something like KQ or KJ. you see...he doesn't need a monster to cripple you here.

so no, you didn't misunderstand me. you should check down the flop, and then consider stabbing at the turn.

i know it sucks. but that's the situation we put ourselves in.

Whoops! I didn't pay any attention to chip stacks.

Let's say that our stack was sufficient to make a 1/2 pot bet. Would a feeler bet not be in order here? Nothing was mentioned of who UTG+1 is or what kind of player but is it not possible that UTG+1 raised and then called our re-raise preflop with a middle pp (JJ, TT) or even A,Q? A weak play but depending on the player, it's possible isn't it?

[rakdesign]

after that pre-flop reraise you have to either Bet at least 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot on the flop... Plus that reraise reps a hand larger or with a better draw than, QQ which is not really a reraise hand in this situation..with position a flat call or allin is the only choice pre flop...not much of a draw and too vulnerable to a-rag which is favoredly played at our level (probably should have pushed allin if you thought your QQ was good...else you are liable to get outdrawn or flat outplayed post flop)
..other wise you are liable to get a card on the turn that is more trouble...there is NO VALUE in a check ESPECIALLY since you have committed so much pre-flop...you have effectively put yourself in an allin situation on any hand subsequent to this if you lose..so you have to bet here and if you are reraised you fold...if your opp has the A or K he is reraising you to fend of the flush draw...if he is on the draw, that bet is probably too much for him to chase....you HAVE TO bet to get reliable information...we are all playing at the same level (relatively) so I am ruling out any type of extremely creative pre-flop holdings or a naked bluff by the opp....
the fate here is in the pre-flop play...and you have to follow through...otherwise you lose to the likes of kJ,kq,k10...you have to punish people for playing those cards out of position...your check on the flop validates them playing that hand and it tells them that is it good...you have to put out of your mind that you are actually behind and rep the hand that you know will make your opponent fold...play the position and use your bet to make the better hand fold...the flop is actually in favor of the poor preflop decision.

.....reference...gus hanson,daniel neg,Gavin smith, every brenes brother,PHIL IVEY....this is how they build stacks from novice players..you have to forget about your cards in this instance and soley play the situation....

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by trutan

Whoops! I didn't pay any attention to chip stacks.

Let's say that our stack was sufficient to make a 1/2 pot bet. Would a feeler bet not be in order here?

sure. if i had 2k left, this is an obvious continuation bet.

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by rakdesign

after that pre-flop reraise you have to either Bet at least 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot on the flop

i argue no.

..other wise you are liable to get a card on the turn that is more trouble...

like what? both cards that are trouble for you are out there. if you're beat, you have two outs.

there is NO VALUE in a check ESPECIALLY since you have committed so much pre-flop...

the reverse is true, as yeltzen said above. either you're way ahead of a hand like 99 (in which case the villain folds), or you're way behind an A or a K, in which case you go broke. if he does have 99, you're giving him a free card with 2 outs. are you concerned about getting 2-outed?

you have effectively put yourself in an allin situation on any hand subsequent to this if you lose..

yup. we made a mistake preflop. does that mean we're committed to the hand? i don't think so. i believe we should do what's best for our tournament at this point. the money in the pot is no longer ours. let's not commit suicide here...

so you have to bet here and if you are reraised you fold...if your opp has the A or K he is reraising you to fend of the flush draw...

so we should bet 600 of our 1100 chips, and then fold to a reraise? this is bad poker, sir. a bet commits us at this point.

if he is on the draw, that bet is probably too much for him to chase....you HAVE TO bet to get reliable information...

there are cheaper ways to get information. and losing 300 here "to get info" isn't cost efficient.

we are all playing at the same level (relatively) so I am ruling out any type of extremely creative pre-flop holdings or a naked bluff by the opp....

mmm...i disagree. "creative" holdings (by which i mean absolute trash), aren't so unlikely. in fact, i'd say players at "our" level are more creative than they are good or TAG.

the fate here is in the pre-flop play...and you have to follow through...otherwise you lose to the likes of kJ,kq,k10...you have to punish people for playing those cards out of position...

the question is, what's more important? punishing them, or taking care of ourselves? clearly, our survival is more important than administering justice. btw, those Kings you listed are likely to call the flop bet, depending on who the villain is.

your check on the flop validates them playing that hand and it tells them that is it good...you have to put out of your mind that you are actually behind and rep the hand that you know will make your opponent fold...play the position and use your bet to make the better hand fold...the flop is actually in favor of the poor preflop decision.

who said the villain made a poor preflop decision? aren't his mostly hands AK, AQ, AA, KK, that kind of stuff? we don't know that we're ahead here...in fact we have little reason to believe that we are.

.....reference...gus hanson,daniel neg,Gavin smith, every brenes brother,PHIL IVEY....this is how they build stacks from novice players..you have to forget about your cards in this instance and soley play the situation....

i know MOST about gavin smith's game, and i'm positive that absent other information he'd have just called preflop. these gues don't get big stacks by paying off AX here, i can guarantee you that.

i'm a big fan of the continuation bet in general. just not when we're beat 70% of the time, and the bet cripples us when we're beat. we made a mistake here. i don't believe in compounding it with another. if you're not beat, the oop villain is likely to check to you again on the turn (b/c your flop check could mean AA, KK, or AK). then you get the pot with a bet.

but betting now...me no likey.

i'd like to hear from some others on this one, btw.