[DoubleDeuce]

Allright I need some chiptalk help in discussing this tournament situation.

It's a home game MTT playing NLHE. Started with 23 players plus 4 rebuys and everbody started with $1000 in their stack. Now its down to the final 7. I am 5th or 6th in chips with about $2300 in chips. Blinds are 100/200 with a 25 ante. Tourney pays out top 4 spots.

So I'm on the button with AJo. UTG limps in. Fold. Fold. Loose rookie on my right limps in even though he only has about $600 total. He has been limping in with Kx, Ax, suited cards etc. I figure I am ahead of what ever he is playing. UTG I'm not too familiar with his game, has come in strong twice with 4xBB raises preflop but this is the 2nd limp since we've made final table. Table has been tight so I figure I can isolate and scoop a nice pot of $1275 (counting on loose player calling his remaining $400).

I raise 4xBB to $800 total. SB folds. BB folds. UTG calls. Loose player calls. So main pot of $2275 with a sidepot of $400.

Flop comes Q94 rainbow. UTG checks to me. Now here is my question:

Should I make a continuation bet at this point even though common logic says both players should check down to eliminate the shortstack?

There is just a small sidepot but the mainpot is so huge should I be justified betting to try to eliminate action in order to win it? If I take down this pot my stack would be $3775 and at least give me a chance to mix it up with the other big stacks.

So in this situation I played it safe and checked it down with UTG who had limped with 89. His pair of 9s held up. Loose player had King-little and was out. I was left with $1500 in chips.

In hindsight I don't know if a continuation bet would've pushed UTG out. Though it would make it tough for him to call with middle pair if I pushed all-in after the flop. Perhaps I should've pushed all-in preflop...


Anyways I would like to hear other people's opinions about this type of situation. Usually a check down makes sense in an elimination hand but is there a certain point where the main pot becomes so large in relation to your own stack that it becomes imperative to try to isolate for it?

[SpaceMonkey]

Um, push preflop or just call if you're feeling tight. Even with position, I wouldn't want to be making such a smallish pre-flop raise that's 1/3 of your stack.

You're in a bad spot, less to way less than average chips, M under 5, 3 away from the money. You need to double here. So either call, and get it all in on a flop you hit, or push preflop.

[SpeakEasy]

The 'Monkey nailed it.

Unless you have a strong read that UTG is tricky and might have limped with AA/KK, this is an easy push to isolate against small stack, against whom you are very likely ahead since he is stupid enough to limp(!!!) with 3BBs.

Your raise is probably the worst play of all, because it could lead to exactly the situation that you are in -- significant chips committed, you whiffed on the flop, and you have absolutely no read on UTG.

But, that was not your question. No, you should not make a "continuation" bet, you should push, and make like you have a Q or big pair. (You know -- puff your chest out, tell him you got this idiot knocked out, etc.) In your current predicament, I would still push to isolate against small stack. If UTG calls here, good read by him.

The only fact that would change my decision is if UTG is the big stack and another 1500 would not dent him. You don't tell us how many chips UTG has, which would be very important in this decision.

(Also, save the conclusion of the hand for after the discussion. Adds to the drama.)

[DoubleDeuce]

Sorry Speak I didn't throw more drama your way but I just wanted to get to the point.

When I was typing up the original post I saw that pushing preflop would be the solid play. I need to do better in keeping track of my stack sizes in live play. Once I calculated the correct amounts I saw my M had just dipped below 5 and that does not take into account the shortened table.

Also just to make clear my "continuation bet" would have to be an all-in. I'd have to play it like a made hand: AQ, KQ, or some big pocket pair. No way I could do a $800 bet into that pot with that flop. He could have JT for OESD, QJ with top pair, T9 or 89 with midpair, or maybe he thinks his mid pocket pair is still good.

The guy had me covered but I'm guessing if I pushed my remaining $1500 it would be about 1/4 to 2/5 of his stack.

Oh and my buddy the shortstack is a poker idiot. He rarely plays and when he does he treats it as gambling. He must've hit a bunch of draws to make the final table before lady luck left him.
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Now is there any type of situation where a checkdown vs a continuation all-in bet might apply? Say if my M was 7.5 instead of 5? What if I have a read on UTG as calling station who likes to see flops but can fold if he misses? What if its a tournament with a top heavy prize structure where only 1st or 2nd pay and therefore chips become ultra-valuable?

[FL70]

Echo the above posts on the preflop - call or push. Pushing is a tougher move with 2 limpers already in (one being the short stack who is almost a guaranteed call). You're much better off pushing if you're the first to act, even if your cards aren't quite as good.

Any action you take post flop is really only for the 400 in the sidepot. You have no read on a guy who limped UTG and called a 4xBB raise out of position. Do you really want to risk 800+ more chips to the pot with Ace-high to possibly lockdown a 400 chip side pot? No.

Since there's 7 players left and paying 4, and since I've got no solid hand, I'm doing what I have to do to knock out the short stack. In this case it's checking it down.

[DoubleDeuce]

Originally Posted by FL70

Any action you take post flop is really only for the 400 in the sidepot. You have no read on a guy who limped UTG and called a 4xBB raise out of position. Do you really want to risk 800+ more chips to the pot with Ace-high to possibly lockdown a 400 chip side pot? No.

Actually I will have to respectfully disagree with you there FL70. Its not just for $400, if I can knock out UTG that improves my odds to winning the entire pot. I'm sure the pokerstove people could give a nice rundown on the odds involved.

Anyways the point of the cooperation check-down in a tourney is based on the idea that the main pot is not worth as much as knocking out a competitor. In this situation though, the main pot is crucial for my tournament success and I'm not really concerned about knocking out the shortstack...he's a poker idiot with a micro stack. Pretty soon he'll be busto by his own ineptness. Now if he was a big name pro I might be more inclined to check it down just to improve my chances of kicking out an ultra-tough player.

So in hindsight I regret:
a) not pushing all-in preflop
b) stop and go after the flop

[FL70]

Let me rephrase:

Originally Posted by FL70

Any action you take post flop is only guaranteed to win you the 400 in the sidepot. You have no read on a guy who limped UTG and called a 4xBB raise out of position. Do you really want to risk 800+ more chips to the pot with Ace-high to possibly lockdown a 400 chip side pot? No.

[smoore]

Yeah, definitely just push preflop, knock out UTG there. As played I don't see anything wrong with checking it down w/Ahi

[DoubleDeuce]

Ok now you've done it...I downloaded pokerstove.

So here are the #s with me and shortstack headsup:


equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
HERO: 63.6541 % 61.23% 02.43% { AsJc }
SHORTY: 36.3459 % 33.92% 02.43% { 99-22, AJs-A2s, K2s+, Q8s+, JTs, AJo-A2o, K2o+, QTo+, JTo }


Now with UTG added:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
HERO: 42.3910 % 39.60% 02.79% { AsJc }
SHORTY: 27.0431 % 25.38% 01.67% { 99-22, AJs-A2s, K2s+, Q8s+, JTs, AJo-A2o, K2o+, QTo+, JTo }
UTG: 30.5659 % 28.72% 01.85% { 99-22, AJs-A2s, KTs+, QTs+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, AJo-ATo, KTo+, QTo+, J9o+, T9o, 98o }


That is a 21% swing in the win %. That is a pretty significant shift for a pretty significant pot. Yes any bets after the flop can only "lock down" the side pot but if I can eliminate UTG than my chances improve immensely to win the whole pot. Its a similar concept to Sklansky's "raising to drive out worse hands when your own may be 2nd best".