[JT-Bird]

I have been playing NLHE for about 6 months, read books (little green, theory of..) but I have a REALLY simple question...

I seem to get a lot of good starting hands back-to-back-to-back when playing on-line. I bet aggessively pre-flop and often pick up the blinds and often I limit the field to 1-2 callers. Here is my question. When I totally miss the flop, and I am not in ideal position, what should I do? I can't bet out each of these hands because chances are someone hit the flop, I feel if I check or reduce my opening bet it shows too much weakness (which of course is accurate) and fear I will get aggresively raised.

I can usually take some of these pots by betting but it seems to run 50% of the time. The other 50% of time, getting beat, more than offsets the profits made when I scare away callers.

Any thoughts?

Maybe this is question is not as easy as I orginally thought.

[dad604]

If you win 50% when you bet out and lose the other 50% of the time, then you should be ahead when you bet out unless you are overbetting the pot or not folding when you get play back. I favor a continuation bet myseld when I raise pf.

[yeltzen]

It depends on what type of people are behind you in the hand. If they'll call with anything, there's no sense in betting, since they can't be bluffed off a hand... you're better off waiting for good hands and betting them for value. If they are players you've seen fold on the flop, then you might be able to make a "continuation bet" (a bet that continues your action from preflop), as long as the flop isn't too scary.

Example:
You have AK and raise under the gun, two people call you.

The flop is:
2c 6h 10d

Not a scary flop at all... bet out if the people behind you fold like normal human beings. You can actually try a bet here even against maniacs... if they call you probably give it up.

If the flop was Jh Qh 7s you probably wouldn't want to get too attached to this hand no matter who you were against. You could occasionally bet this against people who fold (maybe like 50% of the time), but probably never bet it against maniacs.

What the flop looks like is the biggest factor. How the players play is the second biggest factor.

[FreckleDaddy]

I am usually in favour of the continuation bet. If you always bet when you hit and check when you miss, even the poorest players will pick up on this. Now I'm not suggesting you do the same thing everytime, as poker is all about making a different move now and then. But if you usually continue with your bet you suceed in doing one key thing in my opinion. That is you really start to disguise your hand. If you bet out when you flop a monster, TPTK, a solid draw, (read open ended straight or 4 to the flush) or when you miss completely, you're opponent will have no clue what kind of hand you have.

Now obviously there are always exceptions, as poker is all about the 'it depends.' But if you raise preflop out of position you should have a pretty strong starting hand. So even if you miss the flop you should probably have some sort of outs, even if they are only overcards.

Now since you're talking about hitting a lot of good hands in a row and raising preflop everytime, you're opponents are going to start giving you less and less credit for hands. So when you pick up AK UTG and get called by a QT, even if the flop comes ten high, you still have overcards as outs. Now I've been playing a lot of limit lately, so I don't really have to worry about being put to the test for all my money so you have to be careful when you decide to call one of after you get reraised. There's no shame in betting out and folding if the price isn't right. That being said. Now since you've been betting out time and time again, what happens when instead of only having AK, you have pocket nines and flop a set. Well you bet out again, Mr. Top Pair raises you, and you got him. This should definitely make up for those pots where you're forced to lay your hand down. Also I've found that you'll also be able to pick up a lot of little pots by continuing your bet, and they do add up.

But you always have to be mindful of what the flop actually looks like. Just like Yeltzen said you don't want to be betting out into some very coordinated board when you have opponents behind you. I've found bluffing at flops like 9TQ or 89T, pretty much flops with "high number cards and low face cards" for lack of a better term, is not a good in the long run. Especially since everyone and their grandma are calling raises headsup with JT and whatnot. I think we can thank WPT for that.

But it comes down to the old 'know your players.' The more you pay attention to how people are playing the better you'll be able to execute these moves. To me there's nothing better than making the occasional move against somebody because you've paid attention to how they're playing.

I hope I kept on topic.

Fd

[yeltzen]

The only problem with always betting out when you raise preflop out of position is that the other players can pick up on this too and will find out they can raise you with middle pair and take the pot away when you don't really flop much. There's always time for the check-raise to be thrown in there.

[FreckleDaddy]

Yeah in hindsight I didn't really mean to say always. More like most of the time. But it still really depends who you are up against.

Fd

[Colquhoun]

Originally Posted by FreckleDaddy

Especially since everyone and their grandma are calling raises headsup with JT and whatnot. I think we can thank WPT for that.

Yes, thank you WPT. I pray all nite for players that call raises with JT.

[gwilkx]

Originally Posted by Colquhoun

Yes, thank you WPT. I pray all nite for players that call raises with JT.

i like those guys too, though it stings when they hit.

played a $50 tourney at a local cardroom on saturday (75 players). caught some good cards and doubled my stack in the first level. showed down strong values every hand that saw a showdown.

opening hand of 2nd level, i get AA UTG+1. i raise 3.5 x BB. one caller from the cutoff, holding JT of course.

flop was Q98 and i doubled him up, putting myself right back to the middle of the pack.

i kept reminding myself that good players need bad players to make calls like that . . .

gw-

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by gwilkx

i like those guys too, though it stings when they hit.

played a $50 tourney at a local cardroom on saturday (75 players). caught some good cards and doubled my stack in the first level. showed down strong values every hand that saw a showdown.

opening hand of 2nd level, i get AA UTG+1. i raise 3.5 x BB. one caller from the cutoff, holding JT of course.

flop was Q98 and i doubled him up, putting myself right back to the middle of the pack.

i kept reminding myself that good players need bad players to make calls like that . . .

gw-

How do you double him up with that ugly flop unless he was really short-stacked?

[Poboy]

I'm just quoting some of the good advice you've gotten.

Originally Posted by yeltzen

It depends on what type of people are behind you in the hand.

What the flop looks like is the biggest factor. How the players play is the second biggest factor.

Except, I think in NL, 1 is 2 and 2 is 1.

Originally Posted by FreckleDaddy

Now since you're talking about hitting a lot of good hands in a row and raising preflop everytime, you're opponents are going to start giving you less and less credit for hands.

This is absolutely true, and that's why you have to be mixing it up when you raised for the second time and missed.

But it comes down to the old 'know your players.' The more you pay attention to how people are playing the better you'll be able to execute these moves. To me there's nothing better than making the occasional move against somebody because you've paid attention to how they're playing.

Originally Posted by yeltzen

The only problem with always betting out when you raise preflop out of position is that the other players can pick up on this too and will find out they can raise you with middle pair and take the pot away when you don't really flop much. There's always time for the check-raise to be thrown in there.

The check-raise is a very valuable weapon in a case like this.

Starting with knowing the player - after a while at the table, you should be able to pick out the guys who can't fold any piece, the guys who think any preflop raise is AK or similar non-paired overcards (these guys make me laugh. They never give credit for a pocket pair), guys who fit or fold, guys who are always scared of being bluffed out so they always fire back, and guys who'll call the flop but not the turn.

So, once you figure out who you're up against, you evaluate the flop. If it's very ragged, do not bet out at the guy who always puts a PF raise as overcards. He'll just not believe you and fire back. The fit/fold guy is an easy bet most flops. The guy who can't fold any piece, you can probably bet ragged flops, but any scary flop like a 3 straight or flush you should check.
The check raise is a good weapon for the guy who is scared of being bluffed out. That's telling him you aren't bluffing.
Flops with say, one paint and rags or 9s and 10s are good flops for a check raise if people are not believing your bets.

One move that you don't want to use often, but is awesome when you do is to wait until the turn to do your continuation bet. A bluff raise or bluff check raise turn works on just about everybody. If you get called or raised, you're usually toast.