[Nanook]

This is not a Bad Beat thread. I did get taken out of the SNG, but I could really care less about that.

First I will give background and tell what happened.

Poker* STT. I am on the button. Blinds at 25 and 50. I have 2000 chips and UTG +2 has 2700 in chips. 6 players left

Pre Flop:
I have Ad, Kd
UTG + 2 calls (50), everyone else folds around to me. I bet 200. sb folds, BB calls and UTG +2 calls
Pot = 625

The rest is irrelevant to my question, but I will include it anyway.

Flop comes Ah, 4c, 2s

BB checks
UTG + bets 250
I call
BB folds

Turn: Ac
UTG + 2 bets 450
I call

River comes 7h
He goes all in
I call

He winds up showing: 2d, 2c and Takes all my chips

This hand really got me thinking. If I had a low pocket pair and someone opens with a 3x BB bet I fold this every time. So when the flop came as it did I completely eliminated 22 from what I was thinking he might have. I was thinking A with a middle to low kicker.

Anyway on to the question:

I know that if someone puts you all in and you have 2 overcards to a lower pp you are about 6:5 dog or so, but what about this situation PF. What sort of pot odds does he need to make calling corect? I just can't figure out how this one works.

Someone enlighten me please.

Thanks,

AB

[99%evil]

I'd call a raise with a low pocket pair to see a flop, if I catch and I put the other guy on high cards like A,K A,Q I can bust him hard. He caught on the flop, he put in $250 preflop and still had about $2450 left. Heads up, going in with a pair (albeit a small pair) he was ahead when he called, it was loose, but I'd think I'd make the same call.

[jldecarlo]

I don't have the answer to your question. Your odds of hitting a set are about 7.5:1 as I recall. If you need a set or better on the flop to win, there's your answer.
But it isn't as easy as that. You might make your set and loose to a straight or better (or even set over set). You might win with your 22 or a bet at the pot.

However, I wouldn't call pre-flop here with 22. The pot is laying about 3:1 and I would like to see 6-7:1 or better. I might well limp, especially in position and/or with several limpers in front of me.

L

[scottwire]

It's not about pot odds, it is about implied odds.

I will call with any pocket pair in this situation as long as the stacks are deep enough. Odds to hit a set on the flop is about 8:1. He is calling 150 into a pot that already has 450 chips. Your stack is at 2000 plus whatever the other guy's stack is, his implied odds are more than enough to justify this call. Plus he is closing the action and doesn't have to risk someone else reraising.

"Takes all my chips" is exactly why you call with 22. Most people can't get away from their overpairs or TPTK.

Now if UTG+2 only has like 500 chips left then calling with 22 is -EV because you won't be able make up for all the times you miss hitting your set.

It's all about the deep stacks and the fact that he is closing the action that makes this play +EV

[99%evil]

It is a gamble with a higher pair on the board since the other guy could pair his kicker and have a bigger boat, I guess it depends on what kind of money you were playing for.

[luckychick]

Generally people call with small pp not because they are getting correct odds currently, but because of the implied odds.

It's about 7:1 to hit a set - which, if he hits, is a big money maker. So he isn't looking at the $200 to call, he's looking at the $1800 left in your stack. He's closing the action, so he knows it's only going to cost him another $150, which is small relative to his stack right now. A general rule some people follow is that if it costs less than 1/7th of their stack, they will call.

Note this is a great flop for him - you hit your A and he made his set, but the flop is otherwise unco-ordinated. (I'm a little surprised he led out - you might have folded JJ).

The other possiblity with a small pair (better heads up than 3 handed though) is if the flop comes trash, he might be able to get you off your hand - assuming you have two big cards - with a strong bet. The limp/call is a classic sign of a small pp. If you miss and he bets the pot, do you draw to your two over, especially knowing he'll make you pay on the turn again?

Hope this helps.

Edit: looks like you got a lot of answers while I was typing this. What they said.

[hachkc]

I'm by no means an expert at this but he had roughly 2:1 odds (150 to call into pot of 325) to call the raise PF when was a 6:5 favorite assuming he put you on 2 over cards. Still, hard to call a raise with pocket deuces in EP this early in the tournament; maybe he thought you were on a steal or something.

Any background on his or your play? Had you been raising from the button often into an unraised pot, etc.

[jldecarlo]

Originally Posted by scottwire

It's not about pot odds, it is about implied odds.

I agree with that, but disagree with your conclusions. You can make a lot of money on a set, no doubt. But you're 8:1 to hit. Then the other guy has to like his hand enough to bet/call a substantial amount. AND the set has to hold up. I think 3:1 pre flop, even with relatively deep stacks is still negative EV.

L

[JonnyRockets]

I probably would've called the raise with 22 if opponent had a large stack - while it's not a good hand, Just like explained above - It will work out if you do happen to hit.

If I had to fold at the flop - it didn't hurt me too much becasue of my chipstack to begin with.

Jon

Also had to mention 2,2 is an easy hand to walk away from if need be.

[99%evil]

I concur with the above, if he puts you on high cards (non-paired) and the flop comes rags, then he puts you to a decision for your money, he will win the preflop money in this scenario unless you gamble with two cards to come. I think many times I throw odds out the window (especially on-line) and just play the player, if you get a read on a player that he has those high cards you can call with just about anything and if you know he's the type to fold if he doesn't catch a piece will fold, you can take advantage of these people. This might not be the case in your scenario, but depending on the circumstances this is how I play.