[ky70]

A Hand from the $15,000 Championship Event at Bellagio's Five-Diamond World Poker Classic
Winning Percentage Before Flop: 81.90% After Flop: 91.60%	Player A	Player B	Winning Percentage Before Flop: 18.10% After Flop: 8.40%
The Flop Turn River Both players had a little more than $30,000 in chips (they started the event with $30,000), and the blinds were $50-$100. Player A raised from under the gun to $300, Player B reraised to $900 from second position, and everyone else folded. Player A reraised again to $3,000, and Player B reraised to $10,000. Player A moved all in for another $20,000, and Player B called instantly. Analysis: Note: If there is ever a time to lay down K-K before the flop, this is it. Player A opened with a raise from under the gun, reraised, and then moved in. Player A had to have A-A or K-K (most likely A-A), and he showed his strength three times. It is not fun to lay down K-K, but sometimes you have to do it. Player B still would have had $20,000 in chips, based on the slow structure of the tournament.

The above was copied from Carplayer. What do you guys think about the commentary suggesting player B should have known he was up against AA (or KK) AND that player B should have folded?

[faker]

hindsight is always 20/20

[burnvalley]

Bull crap. If you get KK and and on the samehand someone has AA if you are that scared then fine fold but other than that just chalk it up to its just not your tournament to win.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Both players had a little more than $30,000 in chips (they started the event with $30,000), and the blinds were $50-$100. Player A raised from under the gun to $300, Player B reraised to $900 from second position, and everyone else folded. Player A reraised again to $3,000, and Player B reraised to $10,000. Player A moved all in for another $20,000, and Player B called instantly.

I doubt I could lay down KK ever, but I can see their reasoning. The first raise UTG tells you that the guy is probably strong, but not much else. So you reraise him, good. When he pops it back, you've got to figure on AA, KK, or maybe QQ unless the guy is really known to be a tricky player who would make that move with something else. So you pop him again, excellent. At that point, anyone fooling around is going to give it up. So it's got to be AA or KK like the article said when he comes back again all-in. Especially this early in the game. This guy was not afraid.

I know that Harrington basically calls anyone that has folded KK preflop an idiot, but this is a case where everything seems to add up.

[OnTheButton]

Of course, knowing the outcome, he should have laid it down to make the proper move on the hand.

But with that board, who could? No Aces showing, only a J K could have caught a straight, (and it would have cost EVERYTHING to chase it to the Q on the river) and no flush possible, I'd keep the hand too.

Maybe I should have kept my K 5os the other night, to a 3 way all-in bet, when after I folded, the flop came down K K 5.

Easy to say now, what should have been done.

[jojobinks]

this is preflop, btw:

having not played deepstack tournies much, most of us think this is a situation where Kk has to go bust. in a 1500 tourny, this is how this would look.

we're utg +1 with KK.

blinds 50/100.

utg raises to 300, we reraise to 900, fold to utg, who pushes for 1500. we call, getting close to 4:1 on our money.

the above situation is VERY different than the actual hand.
in real life, the utg player raised once and reraised two more times. in addition, the final push gave the KK player only about 2:1 on his money.

now look, i'm not saying i could lay this down. but barring a sick read on UTG, i know i'd think about it...and i'd be angry for not doing so.

how many times have you seen AA v KK in home game (or online) tournies go like this:

player A: makes standard raise. B minraises on top. A minraises on top. B pushes, A calls with AA. B shows KK.

i've seen it at least 50 times. each time i see it, the pattern becomes more familiar. and the more i see it, the closer i get to teh point where i'll be able to make some sick laydowns. truly fishy players make those plays with worse hands, of course. but the thing is...it's our job to win, not to keep the other guys honest.

btw, anyone been watching reruns of poker superstars?

hand one this week...

todd brunson first to act raises with JJ. kathy leibert reraises with TT. Scotty nguyen reraises with AA. Brunson thinks for about 8 seconds and folds. and that's four handed!

the thing is...bets are information. and when someone reraises for the third time in a betting round, you should take it seriously (barring other strong pieces of information, which don't exist here). 20k in chips with the blinds at 50/100 seems like a reasonable stack to work with to me.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

having not played deepstack tournies much, most of us think this is a situation where Kk has to go bust. in a 1500 tourny, this is how this would look.

I think this nails it. In the semi-turbo style tourneys we all probably play in our home games, I don't think I've ever seen 5 raises. This would have gone raise, re-raise, all-in. Or possibly even raise, all-in, call. With the deep stack, you've got room to make a play but still get away from it if it becomes apparent you're toast.

Originally Posted by jojobinks

the thing is...bets are information. and when someone reraises for the third time in a betting round, you should take it seriously (barring other strong pieces of information, which don't exist here). 20k in chips with the blinds at 50/100 seems like a reasonable stack to work with to me.

Just for reference, at 50-100, 20k is an M of 133! I think that's still in the green zone!

I wish there were a way to get the feel of a deep stack tourney compressed into a manageable time frame for a home game. But if there is a way, I haven't found it yet. Even my 5 1/2 hour T10,000 game this week was getting pretty crapshooterific by the end of the 4th hour.

[tomb1]

I forget which smart player said it, but there's a saying something like, "the third reraise means he's got bullets" (pre-flop). I think of that every time I see it in any kind of game, and I gotta tell you it's been right about 90%+ of the time.

We don't have any other info about the player (tricky, pushing people around, etc.?), and it's always tough to lay down KK. But with the tourney at stake, I think I'd fold and live to see another day.

[Fins]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

todd brunson first to act raises with JJ. kathy leibert reraises with TT. Scotty nguyen reraises with AA. Brunson thinks for about 8 seconds and folds. and that's four handed!

I've seen that episode a couple times. Very nice laydown... especially given the structure!

The OP example... I have to agree that the laydown should be strongly considered there. Probably wouldn't have played it that way so I'd have busted on the flop.

[snuix114]

How many books have we all read that say don't go broke preflop with KK on the first blind level of a championship event?

-3 raises = AA: I think it was Cloutier in Championship Hold' em...