[omar]

$2/$5 NL game at Harrah's Council Bluffs. This table is a feeder table to the real game, so most folks are trying to make a quick extra hundred or so before their name is called for the "real" table.

Button dealt J 10
Seat 3 calls BB
Button calls, BB checks (3 players)
Flop Q 4 K
BB & Seat 3 check, Button bets $15
BB folds, Seat 3 calls
Turn is A
Seat 3 checks
Button checks
River is 4
Seat 3 goes all-in for $200
(Seat 3 had done a similar thing 3-4 orbits earlier with 3-4 other players in the hand, all other hands were folded).
Button has $125, call or fold?

[DDD424]

With no action preflop, there is a very slight possibility that he has K4 or Q4, but I would think that if he did, in my mind he would have reraised the flop or raise the turn. His all-in looks a lot like an attempt at a steal. Maybe he has a 4, I don't think that he has a full house, so call.

[Brent]

Bah, I'm calling. You checked on the turn to try and induce this kind of bluff...the river just happens to be one of the few cards that could possibly hurt you.

On the turn, despite the strength of your hand, I would probably have bet out (perhaps about 2/3 pot), but that's just me. I figure he's calling with something he likes and he'll probably keep calling or maybe even reraise me. Of course this is read dependent. You do have the hand virtually locked on the turn of course, so feigning weakness isn't bad.



Let me guess...he shows you ACES FULL OF FOURS?!?!

[tomb1]

Not so sure about the check on the turn . . .

But at this point you're getting about 2:1 on your money, so I call here.

If he has quads or a boat, you lose. That's pokuh.

[yeltzen]

I also don't like checking the turn there because it's one of those times where it could be the only street you win money on. This one is less obvious than others because there is no flush draw, but a lot of times you'll check here, then bet the river and he'll fold because he missed. Take the money from him on the turn before he knows exactly what his hand is on the river. If he had a set, you need to take that money before he hits a paired board.

[omar]

Well, Brentobox guessed it, Aces full. I think you guys are right, I have questioned my check on the turn, but I have cnvinced myself that he would have called anyway. But, at least then I could have told myself that I played it correctly and just got outdrawn. To be honest I never put him on AA, I was scared of Q4 or K4, where he hit 2 pair on the flop but didn't want to overplay it. At the time, that is why I checked the turn, was hoping for a blank on the river, and then a pot sized bet (~$40) from him that I would reraise.

To make matters worse, after I called the all-in and turned up J10, he slowrolled the AA. It was a very dramatic moment for him.

You want to know what my real lesson was? After dumping $200 (most of it in this hand) I took my last $100 to the 3-card poker table and dumped that too. (Note to self - don't gamble you moron! )I should have at least tried to get some money back on the poker table. Talk about morning clarity.

Anyway, I am still fairly new to cash games for decent stakes. My home game is always tourneys, so it stung a llittle more than normal, but like Tomb said, that's pokah!

[yeltzen]

Your situation was way better than you thought, actually. You want him to have a set there. Yeah, it sucks that you got drawn out on, but that's the perfect situation where a guy will call two big bets on the turn and river regardless of whether he fills up. You gotta bet that turn. When the board pairs, you can maybe take it easy on the river and check/call a smallish bet but fold to an all in or something.

You were right to walk away from the table at that point. That's a huge loss and a hard one to take, so you probably wouldn't have done very well after that. But you should have come back later and tried again.

I would personally never play NL casino poker. First of all, the rake and tip are killer, but you always find these dopes that want to play like they watch on WPT and WSOP... regardless of the fact that those are shorthanded tables played against guys who have books on each other. I always see these young guys walk in all big and bad and then leave red-faced. I love it.

[plz]

IMO, the only way to play this hand is to make a pot-sized bet on the turn. The only reason a sane person would call that bet is if he has a boat redraw (two pair or trips). When the board pairs on the river, you can check and fold if he bets. If in reality he's bluffing, then he's a good player and just made a great bluff.

Slowplaying your Broadway on the turn isn't likely to pick up any extra money on the river, since if the river is a blank and you bet, you might end up being called (probably by trips) but you would have been called on the turn too, and gotten more information with that call.

Also, I would heavily discount the possibility that he holds Q4 or K4 (and hence two pair on the flop). These are such weak hands that even the dumbest NL players eventually learn to fold them pre-flop. So the only reasonable guess is that he has a pocket pair, possibly even aces, and you want to make a bet on the turn to figure this out.

Finally, his all-in bet on the river wasn't necessarily the best idea either, since it has a higher likelihood of driving out good hands (such as two pair Ks and Qs). In the long run, he'll make more money with his nut boat by betting 1x - 2x the pot.

[omar]

Originally Posted by yeltzen

Your situation was way better than you thought, actually. You want him to have a set there. Yeah, it sucks that you got drawn out on, but that's the perfect situation where a guy will call two big bets on the turn and river regardless of whether he fills up. You gotta bet that turn. When the board pairs, you can maybe take it easy on the river and check/call a smallish bet but fold to an all in or something.

You were right to walk away from the table at that point. That's a huge loss and a hard one to take, so you probably wouldn't have done very well after that. But you should have come back later and tried again.

I would personally never play NL casino poker. First of all, the rake and tip are killer, but you always find these dopes that want to play like they watch on WPT and WSOP... regardless of the fact that those are shorthanded tables played against guys who have books on each other. I always see these young guys walk in all big and bad and then leave red-faced. I love it.

Thanks for the comments. You know, it's interesting. I, too, am one of these johnny-come-lately poker folk. Been playing a little over a year. As I said, my home game is tournament style ($30 buy-in) , although we do have a side cash game ($0.50/$1 NL). Most of my online play is tourneys too, our Thursday night game and some $10 SNG's. So, I am getting weaned on NL (via tourneys) and trying to take that experience to a casino cash game. I have a little experience in casino limit games but my confidence level kept me at the $3/$6 and $4/$8 tables. There it seemed 3-4 people would often call down to the river and I got sucked out on too many times. So, I figured, play NL where the strategies are more like the tourneys, right?

Anyway, it has occurred to me what I probably really need is some quality time at a limit table working on the basics (i.e. putting him on the set, rather than 2 pair). I read these types of threads on here often, and in doing so, I realize that other people's knowledge of pot odds, drawing percentages, and reads of opponents is far above mine. It's like all us newbies learned backwards, tourneys then ring games, as opposed to the the other way around.

OK, I am clearly rambling. That's enough. Thanks for listening folks.

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by omar

Thanks for the comments. You know, it's interesting. I, too, am one of these johnny-come-lately poker folk. Been playing a little over a year. As I said, my home game is tournament style ($30 buy-in) , although we do have a side cash game ($0.50/$1 NL). Most of my online play is tourneys too, our Thursday night game and some $10 SNG's. So, I am getting weaned on NL (via tourneys) and trying to take that experience to a casino cash game. I have a little experience in casino limit games but my confidence level kept me at the $3/$6 and $4/$8 tables. There it seemed 3-4 people would often call down to the river and I got sucked out on too many times. So, I figured, play NL where the strategies are more like the tourneys, right?

Anyway, it has occurred to me what I probably really need is some quality time at a limit table working on the basics (i.e. putting him on the set, rather than 2 pair). I read these types of threads on here often, and in doing so, I realize that other people's knowledge of pot odds, drawing percentages, and reads of opponents is far above mine. It's like all us newbies learned backwards, tourneys then ring games, as opposed to the the other way around.

OK, I am clearly rambling. That's enough. Thanks for listening folks.

You don't necessarily need to move down to a low-limit table. You just need to learn to get past the "they'll call anyway" mentality on hands like that. That's how I always was in limit games. I'd get AKs in the BB and 6 callers, and I'd just check because "they'd all call anyways". Then I realized that you have to make bets when you have a hand that's likely the favorite every chance you get. So now I will usually raise in that situation and not worry about losing the extra bet most of the time after I miss the flop.

Same thing in your hand. You have a huge advantage, obviously (the nuts). The guy might "call anyways" no matter what you bet, but you have to figure you're getting 75% of both bets (10 cards is about 3-to-1 odds) when you make a bet on the turn there. If he had a hand like AJs there, he MIGHT fold on the river to a bet if he doesn't improve. You don't want that to happen when you have the nuts. You want paid off. Make the bet on the turn so you don't miss a bet on the river. The river is tough, though... it'd still be hard to fold that hand. But most of the time you'll win and make most of your money on the turn.