[ky70]

I'm puzzled as to why hand odds are generally given after the flop that include both the turn and the river. Shouldn't odds be given for just the turn card (in addition to the turn + river combined) as seeing the river isn't a given (unless you our your opponent are all-in)?

For example, you flop 4 to the flush...all the hand odds charts and conversations will say that you have 35% (apprx) chance of hitting your hand with 2 cards to come, but no one seems to talk about the fact the 19.1% (apprx) chance of hitting your card on the turn. Since we will not always have the luxury of seeing both the turn and river cards, shouldn't odds also be discussed with consideration of just the turn card and making your hand?

Or have I just missed these discussions/charts?

Edit: mistakenly said pot odds instead of hand odds in original post

[Poboy]

I usually see odds given to hit on the next card, as well as odds for two cards to come. You'd have to consider your implied odds when making a decision on the flop whether you are going to see the river if the turn blanks.

[littlebu]

Here's a link to a thread on 2+2 with charts that state the turn % and the river %. As Poboy said though you have to think of implied odds as well. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...0&fpart=2&vc=1
There's another chart on the first page as well

[ky70]

Thanks for the link but the hand odds that say "turn" are intended for the 1 card to come after the turn (the river card). I'm wondering why after the flop, you only see odds expressed with the turn & river and never the turn alone.

All the charts I've seen are similar to the chart in the link where they give you post flops odds with 2 cards to come (turn & river) and 1 card to come (river).

edit: mistakenly said pot odds instead of hand odds in original post

[scottwire]

You don't see odds from flop to turn because they are they are essentially the same as turn to river. You are choosing out of 47 cards instead of 46 which for all intents and purposes is not going to make much of a difference in your calculation.

for example:

Flush draw -
9 cards to make your flush out of 47: ~19.2%
9 cards to make your flush out of 46: ~19.6%

Unless you plan on doing incredibly fine calculations on the fly at the table, these differences are pretty much irrelevant.

[ky70]

Originally Posted by scottwire

You don't see odds from flop to turn because they are they are essentially the same as turn to river. You are choosing out of 47 cards instead of 46 which for all intents and purposes is not going to make much of a difference in your calculation.

for example:

Flush draw -
9 cards to make your flush out of 47: ~19.2%
9 cards to make your flush out of 46: ~19.6%

Unless you plan on doing incredibly fine calculations on the fly at the table, these differences are pretty much irrelevant.

Thanks, that makes sense...but when a player has say 4 to a flush, why is the 35% (turn & river) used in the discussion/decision regarding the pot offering you the "right" odds? Unless you're committed to seeing 2 cards, shouldn't the discussion/decision be based on the 19.2% of hitting your hand on the turn (considering that's only card you know u will see)?

[ebae]

I think you are referring to hand odds, not pot odds. Pot odds describe the payout of the pot , not the probablity of hitting your hand.

Most of the time the odds are looked at for both the turn and river because of the implied pot odds. This is especially true in the case of limit games, where if you are calling on the turn, you will more than likely have the odds to call on the river as well.

I think it is important to look at you hand odds for both the turn and river, espoecailly in no-limit.
But in the case where we are talking a bout a 4-flush in a limit game, I think you have to assume you will call/bet/raise down to the river, unless the turn card is one scary ass card, Since the pot odds will more than likely pay better than the 4-1 odds of hitting the flush on the river.

Eric

[ky70]

Originally Posted by ebae

I think you are referring to hand odds, not pot odds. Pot odds describe the payout of the pot , not the probablity of hitting your hand.

Most of the time the odds are looked at for both the turn and river because of the implied pot odds. This is especially true in the case of limit games, where if you are calling on the turn, you will more than likely have the odds to call on the river as well.

I think it is important to look at you hand odds for both the turn and river, espoecailly in no-limit.
But in the case where we are talking a bout a 4-flush in a limit game, I think you have to assume you will call/bet/raise down to the river, unless the turn card is one scary ass card, Since the pot odds will more than likely pay better than the 4-1 odds of hitting the flush on the river.

Eric

Thanks Eric. You are correct, I do mean hand odds (opps). At this point I'm strictly a no-limit player so the limit reference doesn't clear up my confusion.

In no-limit poker when comparing pot odds to your hand odds and determining if the right pot odds are being offered to stay in a hand, why isn't the hand odds of just the next card after the flop discussed/included in poker charts and books. I would think that the odds of hitting your hand with the turn card should be included in the discussion, since seeing the river card isn't guaranteed.

[Jambine]

Originally Posted by ky70

why isn't the hand odds of just the next card after the flop discussed/included in poker charts and books. I would think that the odds of hitting your hand with the turn card should be included in the discussion, since seeing the river card isn't guaranteed.

OK, you're looking at the flop with a 4-flush. There are 9 cards left to make your hand, so that is (about) 4 to 1 that the NEXT card will make a flush. After the turn it is STILL 4 to 1 that the NEXT card will make a flush. The odds do drop a fraction after the turn, but its a very small change.
Effectively, you have TWO chances at 4 to 1. Hope that makes some kind of sense.

[ebae]

Originally Posted by ky70

why isn't the hand odds of just the next card after the flop discussed/included in poker charts and books.

Yeah, my reading (GSHE, SSHE, HEPAP, TOP) has been pretty much only on limit games since I have really only been playing for about 3 months.

Once again, I would have to agree with you that you should consider the odds on just the turn, but unless a scare card like the board pairing itself to bring in possible quads or full houses, I would think that with a strong drawing hand like a 4-flush or even an Open ended straight draw on the flop, you would more than likely want to see the river, especially if you are holding top pair, overcards, etc.

My point is that with such a hand I would be hard pressed to lay it down with out compelling reasons, and so the odds on both the turn and river is the relevant statistic.

Eric

Caveat: Then again I have only been playing for a few months, so what the heck do I know...LOL