[VARoadstter]

Ok. I am interested in discussing a hand I played in a home game on Friday. Here's the setup:

Game is $1/$2 NL with a $300 max buy-in. I had about $200 in front of me at the start of the hand. Stacks around the table are anywhere from about $80 to about $500. The table was 9 handed. The play so far looks like a typical home game. Some are obviously just gambling, some are tight, etc. Your basic mix of players. I am personally feeling quite comfortable with the table as I was being patient and had not been made to show down any hands in the 2 hours I played. I would say that I was probably playing about 25% of hand to the flop. There is no standard raise at the table. I've seen family pots (everyone paid the big blind) and pots where a guy led out for $20 when first to act. I am personally raising to $7 every time I come in betting. I am going to post each part of the hand and wait for comments before moving on

The hand -

I am dealt K Q in MP.
A call to me, I call, and get 3 calls behind. SB and BB stay in. We've got 7 to the flop.

My thoughts here:

Suited KQ is semi-strong, but it needs help to be a winner. I am willing to call a raise with it HU (to a point). By calling, I'm hoping to get some help on the flop or I'll just quietly deposit it in the muck. Anyone playing an ace is ahead of me here so even though it looks pretty good I may actually have nothing. The bonus here is that my hand is often best when it does hit something on the flop and I can play it accordingly. Seven handed I'll have to wait and see how this looks before I will decide how to proceed. By calling, I am revealing nothing about the strength of my hand.

Comments?

[Matthew]

Just like you said - if you hit the flop you're in good shape - maybe getting a lot of callers - but if the flop completely misses you can fold and you're out a BB.

I'm guessing it was an interesting flop with many possibilities for strong hands being 6 players. Altrhough - a call to you, you call, 3 callers behind, plus the blinds - makes 7 by my count. Post flop - you'll have 3 to act before you and 3 after?

[VARoadstter]

Originally Posted by Matthew

Just like you said - if you hit the flop you're in good shape - maybe getting a lot of callers - but if the flop completely misses you can fold and you're out a BB.

I'm guessing it was an interesting flop with many possibilities for strong hands being 6 players. Altrhough - a call to you, you call, 3 callers behind, plus the blinds - makes 7 by my count. Post flop - you'll have 3 to act before you and 3 after?

Oops, my bad I counted wrong. I will fix the other post. Good catch.

As for your guess, don't sweat that part. I'm more interested in the discussion of the hand than anyone trying to figure out in advance what happened. Of course something interesting does happen for me to want to discuss it here, though!

[CaptLego]

So far, it seems pretty straightforward --- you limped with suited connectors. A family pot is good for you, no? You're hoping to hit a monster.

The problem I always have with these type of hands is that anything that hits your hand (short of a straight flush) leaves it quite possible that somebody else will have you beat. So you end up in scary big pots. I'm guessing that's what we're about to hear..

[spamproxy]

Though i have played poker for 30 years (low stakes social games), i am new to hold'em so what i say counts for little, but with a strong but not obvious winner hand, i would be tempted to raise to chase out all the wankers staying in with J-10 off suit (or worse) to see if they can catch a flop. Also if you do raise your usual amount, you get to see who else thinks they have real hand. There are those that use the run to set up the pass and those that work the other way ...But as I say, I may not know enough to be conservative (yet)... I also would be interested in what folks have to say (nicely) about my intuiton.

[jmda]

I have limped in with that hand, but I prefer to raise with it. If your standard raise was $7 that is what I would do. We play $1 $2 no-limit with 100 to 300 max buy-in and I try to raise about the same with a variety of hands to keep people guessing (does he have rockets or big suited connectors? or ducks) - Regardless of how you raise - I would definitely raise with that hand.

You might steal the button with a raise and you might thin the field (yes suited connectors are good in a multi way pot but you have paint not 67 suited or 10J). Also even if the flop does not hit you, you have an opportunity to represent the flop and take down the pot.

I would not raise with K J suited unless next to or on the button, but I will raise with KQ suited under the gun. If you get reraised, you can throw them in the muck - (depending on how well you know the player that reraised).

[Eldog]

Everytime i play KQ i wind up hitting 2 pair and someone catches the straight on me.

[Pavel6969]

I see nothing wrong with your play. Chances are someone does have an ace, so just limping in and trying to see a flop is a good thing. No one else raising does lead me to believe no one has anything better than an ace/10 or lower in their hand. Avoid an ace on the flop and you should be in good shape.

[jmda]

Originally Posted by Eldog

Everytime i play KQ i wind up hitting 2 pair and someone catches the straight on me.

Originally Posted by Pavel6969

No one else raising does lead me to believe no one has anything better than an ace/10 or lower in their hand. Avoid an ace on the flop and you should be in good shape.

Two reasons I raise with the hand. People are less likely to play A J after a raise unless they are suited, same goes with 10 J unsuited (so a straight is less likely if you hit two pair). A junk should go in the muck after a raise on a full table. So if an A does hit you can represent the flop and take it down right there half the time.

The other reason to raise is that if you do hit your hand you want to win a nice pot

[jojobinks]

i wrote a really long reply, and then lost it. i'm discouraged, but will find time later to try to recreate it. believe me, it was brilliant and insightful.

okay. here goes:
there are two ways you can play KQs. you can raise pf, b/c it's a fairly strong hand, with decent top pair possibilities, and strong draw potential. or you can limp with it b/c it's a massive trap hand in nlhe.


i usually raise here, but would limp somewhere between 1/3-1/2 the time (barring other information).

i think either is fine, but you don't want to get them mixed up.

my point:
once you limp (and get a buncha limpers with you), i think you have to realize that top pair isn't very strong. it's dominatable, and easily sucked out on. if you aren't beat on a k or q high flop, it's entirely reasonable that 3 other players would have 5 outs or more each against you. if you limp, you're looking to make a hand like a flush, straight, or some fluky two pair or trips. so i wouldn't, in this situation get too frisky if i flop top pair. i might bet if checked to me, but i'd hate myself for it. i don't know what i'd do if the flop came and someone bet into me. in the other situation (where i raised pf and got headsup), i'd play aggressively. with 3 players behind me left to act, i'd have to be worried, and i'd consider folding

on the other hand, you can raise pf. this defines your hand as strong (and makes it more likely that you could take down the pot without resistance on the flop pictured above). if you get smoothcalled by AK, or AQ, then you're in trouble, most likely. but this move makes it most likely that you'll get headsup with one player (hopefully the limper in front of you), and puts you in the driver's seat for the hand.

let it be known that this post reflects my understanding of the situation, which is greatly tinted by my experience as a tournament player. i've played about 5x more in tournies, and am about that much more successful in tournies as in cash games. i know the two types of games are different, but oftentimes miss the differences in situations like this. i play scared after the flop if i limp b/c i'm a tourny player. i'm not sure that's right for a cash game, but i don't know it's wrong either so i've got to go with what i know.

Va, when you post the flop, don't give us what you're thinking. let us talk it out first, and then fill in some details about your thoughts. it'd make it more interesting (IMHO).