The sore winner... And my inability to .....

[mattiasnyc]

..... take the chips of donkeys.... please help....



The Sore Winner:

We play a cash game about once a month and last night it was time again. We're only 2 players who think about odds (me and another guy). At least 2-4 donkeys every game, no exceptions. Everyone else is mediocre (we play 9 handed).

So this one guy in particular has been driving me crazy. He is basically under the impression that he's a really good player. He judges this by the chips he wins, not how he plays. The time before yesterday he really did have bad luck being at the loosing end of ridiculous suck-outs not once but twice.

Last night he played a hand with one guy who is quite loose. He's the guy who shows up, thinks the buy-in is really low and doesn't really care about loosing money.

So MrSore and MrLoose are heads-up, all-in. MrSore wins and makes a HUUUGE thing out of it. He's like "Gimme the chips... ALL of them... Just shove'em over here... The whole pile..." etc. Big gestures. Big talk. Splashing the chips into a pile instead of carefully shoving the stack to him. Chips falling on the floor. The Loose guy took it well, and I guess most people thought it was sort of funny, but I really thought it was bad sport.

Part of the story is that he is really stubborn and got it in his head that an earlier all-in heads-up resulted in the wrong amount of chips being awarded to the winner, which was not true. Me (dealer) and the two people heads-up all agreed that everything was fine, with only MrSore arguing against it. So this time, when he won, he just wanted the whole stack of chips from his opponent. I told him - as a dealer and host mind you - to have his chips counted because I thought the stacks looked similar. He refused and didn't want to do it and at that point I felt like a jerk for enforcing some sort of sanity, so I just told the guys (heads-up) to do whatever the heck they wanted.

He won one more big hand after a suck-out. He had mid pair, bet $14 (our bb is 20 cents, buy-in $20) post flop, got called by a donkey with two pairs, got donkey all-in on the turn, and managed to pair his K for the better two pairs on the River (this, according to MrSore, is good play. Curiously, a month ago it was good luck when another player sucked-out on him!). After this hand he almost yelled how glad he was that he beat two specific people. These two I guess are people that have managed to clean him out before. They're equally loose and aggressive I suppose.

So after this I was fuming. I thought all of this was terribly bad form.

My Own Problems:

Clearly, part of the problem is in my own head. I've played much better over the last year and am now on a net gain. MrSore is like a roller coaster on the other hand. He wins big like last night, thinks he's great, but then busts, re-buys and busts again another month. He'd never last a tournament or a longer time with any pro.

But for some reason my gain is about 5-50% (on my buy-in). These guys who play loose can end up 4x the buy in as pure win in an evening. I guess it goes with the territory when you have donkeys at the table. As soon as donkeys disappear MrSore's wins either disappear or are reduced to a fraction.

So - questions:

Was I wrong to be upset about this guys behavior?

How do I put myself in a good spot mentally, so I'm not irritated by sore winners/losers and the donkeys feeding them?

And how do I play so I can capitalize on this situation? I've tried to loosen up and play more pots, but I end up with only marginal profits overall. I just keep feeling that it's almost impossible to play against people who bet with garbage. I clearly can't bluff them. I can't "affect" their play through bet sizing (like giving them bad odds). I can't read them (since some of them barely comprehend what they have and their draws)..... I'm just at a loss here...

[TenPercenter]

1. No you were not wrong to be upset about this guys behavior. HOWEVER, It will be wrong to let him know! This guy is a donk more so than some of the people he calls donks. Dont scare him off.

2. How do you put yourself in a good spot mentally? -- By using your knowledge of this guy against him. In fact, play into his attitude by pulling him off to the side like a fellow great player, and tell him he's going to scare off the fish acting like that in pots. This will result (hopefully) in a) not scaring off the other lesser players, and b) not scaring him off, and c) saving you some sanity later.

3. Play to capitalize: TAG. Plain and simple, tight/aggressive. And never berate him like he does other players. Don't make it a big point that win against him, just keep raking those medium pots from him. Let this guy's huge swings work in your favor. Remember, despite a 4x stack on his winning nights, he's a losing player over time. Be one of those that takes a small portion of those losing nights when he buys in 4-5 times. You might only double up on a good night, but you more than most nights come out ahead.

[mattiasnyc]

Thanks for the advice. Turns out I wasn't the only one who had a problem with this guys behavior...

[Sargaroth]

an advice from a real amateur: we have money-more-than-wisdom player with a roller coaster stats as you told.. don't be upset, plasy tight against him and take his money, that's all.. I realized that these kind of "gamblers" would gladly give 5x - 6x buyins just for satisfaction of one bad beat..

[CRider]

Yup...had one of these guys in our local game too. He rarely comes around anymore...but when he does, I just tightne up the reins and wait cuz it's only a matter of time on most nights.

[mattiasnyc]

I guess I'm irritated because:

a) The donks keep winning the big pots because of their wild play (goes with the territory I guess / and "yes" I know they aren't likely to be netting a profit over the long haul, but the opposite instead)

b) I've been netting a profit every game for close to a year now

c) But I still can't seem to get maximum gain from those times I get lucky with the cards

The last thing is a mystery to me and if someone could point me to a thread I'd be happy. I just can't seem to get the maths together (along with my "guts") to properly bet to get those big pots (when the donks are screwing up). Should I just loosen up a bit?....

(We're talking people going all in with "garbage"; i.e player A with two pair, B with mid pair, on the flop, horrendous pot and implied odds, with B sucking out on the river, etc.... )

[mipevi]

Originally Posted by mattiasnyc

I guess I'm irritated because:

a) The donks keep winning the big pots because of their wild play (goes with the territory I guess / and "yes" I know they aren't likely to be netting a profit over the long haul, but the opposite instead)

b) I've been netting a profit every game for close to a year now

c) But I still can't seem to get maximum gain from those times I get lucky with the cards

a) Wild play results in big pots and big swings. Over the long haul means a really long time, especially live it can seem like they just keep winning because you don't get that many hands played per hour.

b) This is not a problem and should not irritate you.

c) To get max profits from very loose players, you need to loosen up too, but of course still play tighter than they do. And you need to play well post flop.

[Duckbutter48]

We of course have "that guy" at our game. I adjust my game to him as much as I do a tight player/bad player etc... I don't play at him more then any other player, I see a lot of the other guys trying to do that and it hurts them in the long run(especially mentally). Just ignore him when he is talking, maybe he knows his yappin gets into folks heads and helps him.

When in hands with him and Im out of position. I c-bet a little less then normal when I wiff..since he's most likely calling flop bet anyway no use to waste more $$$ then I have to. I bomb the turn when I have TPTK type hands figuring he is on a draw. Even a pair or 2 pair draw to a lot of times keeps him in hands.

When Im in position and don't have a great hand but a draw or overs I just call his bets unless I have trips or better then I may raise. Its hard to range someone who plays every hand. I check a lot of my draws and call if he gives me odds. Just remember your implied odds hands are prob a bit higher then usual. I come along late most of time with Ax suited..SC's etc...low PP's. If I don't flop a strong draw or set I will just fold.

The thing that helps me the most is to 3 bet his open raises huge with premium hands. He raises to $12 and theres a call or 2, I have no problem raising to $100- $150 with prem. hand. Usually he is the only caller, I play a hand like that very aggressive and pay no attention to his bets/calls. I basically plan on getting AI PF during the hand and I stick with that plan unless the board gets extremely scarey--4 diamonds..4 card strait on board something like that. The once in a while he wins is what keeps him in the game the few times I lose I just tell him good hand and rebuy.

I also don't "tighten up" against a extremely loose player. I don't see the need, you are already wayyyy tighter then he is so just play your normal cards if anything I losen up and play more implied odds cards in position especially late. Take away his odds when you can and deal with the big swings. He will still have some good nights but in the long run he will loose most of the time.

[Poola]

Originally Posted by Duckbutter48

We of course have "that guy" at our game. I adjust my game to him as much as I do a tight player/bad player etc... I don't play at him more then any other player, I see a lot of the other guys trying to do that and it hurts them in the long run(especially mentally). Just ignore him when he is talking, maybe he knows his yappin gets into folks heads and helps him.

When in hands with him and Im out of position. I c-bet a little less then normal when I wiff..since he's most likely calling flop bet anyway no use to waste more $$$ then I have to. I bomb the turn when I have TPTK type hands figuring he is on a draw. Even a pair or 2 pair draw to a lot of times keeps him in hands.

When Im in position and don't have a great hand but a draw or overs I just call his bets unless I have trips or better then I may raise. Its hard to range someone who plays every hand. I check a lot of my draws and call if he gives me odds. Just remember your implied odds hands are prob a bit higher then usual. I come along late most of time with Ax suited..SC's etc...low PP's. If I don't flop a strong draw or set I will just fold.

The thing that helps me the most is to 3 bet his open raises huge with premium hands. He raises to $12 and theres a call or 2, I have no problem raising to $100- $150 with prem. hand. Usually he is the only caller, I play a hand like that very aggressive and pay no attention to his bets/calls. I basically plan on getting AI PF during the hand and I stick with that plan unless the board gets extremely scarey--4 diamonds..4 card strait on board something like that. The once in a while he wins is what keeps him in the game the few times I lose I just tell him good hand and rebuy.

I also don't "tighten up" against a extremely loose player. I don't see the need, you are already wayyyy tighter then he is so just play your normal cards if anything I losen up and play more implied odds cards in position especially late. Take away his odds when you can and deal with the big swings. He will still have some good nights but in the long run he will loose most of the time.

I love this response. The only thing I would add to this thread is that if you are having problems with handling your own emotions, as it relates to other players behavior, I would recommend you take a quick read of a few poker books. Check out the books that focus on the emotions/psychology behind poker. It will help you to understand why certain players behave as they do, and perhaps help you to capitalize on those emotions in certain spots.