[ontheuptick]

This is NOT a bad-beat story.

I haven't talked about my Vegas trip (1st week of November) on here or AVP because I haven't wanted to talk about the 2 hands that killed me. I don't know why, but I decided to share today.

Business trip in Vegas, this is my 2nd time in Vegas, both within the last year. I am a NL cash player, so I play 1/2 all over town. My first time I sat down (MGM) for about 2 hours, I was up $350. Most of my sessions end in a bust out or up about $200 bucks. I'm up about $300 on the trip when I come to this....

Morning at the Excaliber. I go here because I am staying at the Mandalay, and there's decent action at the Ex in the morning. I sit down at a table (200 max-buy) with 3 big stacks, I get them all to my right (they are side by side). $1200, $1000, and $800 between the three of them. They had been playing all night, I'll call them Nick the Local (NtL), Tourist Cowboy (CB), and Drunk Harrah's Employee (DHE).

This is the craziest table I have ever played on in Vegas. Because of those three guys, pre-flop raises were were $20-$25, and one of them raised up EVERY pot. I went from $200, to $500, back down to $100, and back up to $500. Every hand had potential to be a big pot.

So, on the big hand, I have about $450, DHE has about the same. He raises to $20 pre-flop. I look at JJ and repop. I don't remember, probably to about $60 to go. He then repop's AGAIN with a min-raise, making it $120. At this point, I think he's weak. He has been raising all day, and I am pretty sure he is just trying to push me out. I know, JJ isn't the strongest hand in the world, but I am 90% that he doesn't have AA, KK, or QQ, and he could have something like 9Ts.

I push all-in. So, it's another 300ish for him to call. He raised, I reraised, he reraised, I push all in. At this point, DLE should KNOW that I have a hand. He thinks for a while and calls. What does he call with? KQo!!! I couldn't believe he would make that call. Of course, he hits a Q on the flop. I go from $450, potentially up to $900, down to bust. That one hurt.

2nd hand:
I am at MGM. I have to leave (I have about $175ish), I'm one off the button so I'm only playing 1-2 more hands, I announce to the table "this is my last hand fellas, I gotta leave". I get dealt KJs, call a preflop raise of like $7, button raises to $15, I call along with another guy, 3 to the flop.

Flop comes TJQ, rainbow. I have middle pair, open ended straight draw. At this point, I basically decide that my announcement before the hand has got to make people think I could be playing any cards here, and that I'm just trying to push people around. I bet out ($40-50ish, I think it was a pot-sized bet), and get called by the button, who had raised pre-flop.

Turn, 9. I hit my straight. I go all-in for my last $100-$120. He instacalls and you guessed it, flips over AK for the higher straight. I should have been more worried about AK out there, but I put him on AQ, maybe AJ, QQ, KK, AA.. Basically, I felt like he could have had a ton of hands, only one of them beats me. That one hurt too, not as much money involved, but I felt like I played that one okay, and just got cold-decked.

I think those two hands made the difference from me being up $150 on poker (which was my total) to being up about $1,400 or so..

Anyone have any thoughts on how I played the hands? Sorry that I don't have more exact details like the online hand logs. These hands have been burned into my head for 2 months!

[guinness]

I don't like all in preflop with JJ. Burned too many times and many here feel the same I'm sure. DHE guy probably convinced himself he was up against a race, that you held 99 or TT. If he's drunk, he probably would have called with AT which still would have me biting my nails after a call, regardless of odds. I guess personally I like to get some money in the pot before a flop, but not commit all in with JJ when up against identical stacks in a cash game.

I had this similar thing happen to me at a 2-5NL table at Foxwoods. Old guy bragging about how he retired when was 30 and he's the greatest blah blah. "Teaching" everyone poker at the table and giving his input when not asked. You usually don't find this at 2-5 or 5-10 NL tables but at the lower tables.

Anyways, he announced he was leaving after one more hand. Max buyin was $500 but I had about $1500 in front of me and he had $1000. He raised to $100 as he had been...20x the BB. I look down at KK and announce all in. He thinks for awhile and says "well...if I lose I don't care" and turns over AJ. He rivers a flush and takes the pot while professing he did the right thing.

The second hand, well, shat happens. He flopped the nuts and you flopped the 10th strongest hand and it didn't work out. I wouldn't be haunted by that one. Typically you're getting paid with the 9 getting hit.

[imthatguy]

Don't try to outplay drunk people, they're both fearless and stupid. And I think you played your F'n Jacks a little too strong, especially against a player who's got you well covered and is probably sauced.

Calling preflop raises with JK is a recipe for disaster. I nearly always throw it away, it's just too crackable after the flop and is not a premium hand from any position IMO.

[Sneds]

Hand 1 is a flip. If he's raising everything then your line is perfect here because you want to get AI with JJ on his range. He calls with KQ which you should be happy about and ten catches his card. Standard.

Hand 2 is a bit of a cold deck, but he flopped the straight and there isn't too much you can do about it when the 9 falls. It happens I'm afraid.

[ipgyst]

Hand 1: You violated the Super System 1 rule. Doyle describes a time when he was in a Stud game with a drunk. During one hand, he was heads-up with the drunk and had an edge of about 55%-45%, decided he was going to bust the drunk, got all his money in after about 30 raises, and lost. He should have waited for a better opportunity, but instead he had to watch the drunk lose his money to somebody else, because Doyle was busted. With JJ, you probably should have waited for a better opportunity as well. Your opponents were playing a loose "imaginary ante" game, and all you need is patience to beat one of those. Against the DHE's range, you were at best 45% to 55%; if you had AA there, the action would have been the same and you would have crushed him.

Hand 2: You violated the "don't play one last hand" rule. There was another post about this recently where a CT member had AhKh on the last hand of the night (not the nuts) and lost a big pot. You had a good hand (not the nuts), it was your "last hand", and you lost.

Look on the bright side - you screwed up these two hands and still walked away a winner. I wouldn't feel too bad about these hands.

And I think I got the spirit of these two "poker parables" right. Somebody chime in if I'm wrong. (I think the 2nd one is Greenstein?)

[Sneds]

Originally Posted by guinness

I don't like all in preflop with JJ. Burned too many times and many here feel the same I'm sure.

I look down at KK and announce all in. He thinks for awhile and says "well...if I lose I don't care" and turns over AJ. He rivers a flush and takes the pot while professing he did the right thing.

Don't be ridiculous. He should get it all in with JJ every single time here. If he can't handle variance then that's another thing and maybe he should play lower money where he is decently rolled...but that aside with the players description it's AI.

Also, don't be so results orientated, you got it AI w/ KK against AJ for a $2k pot, you should be delieriously happy that you play the hand well and forced a mistake from your opponent. The fact that he caught his card is competely irrelevent.

[imthatguy]

Originally Posted by Sneds

Don't be ridiculous. He should get it all in with JJ every single time here. If he can't handle variance then that's another thing and maybe he should play lower money where he is decently rolled...but that aside with the players description it's AI.

There's probably a leak in your game if you're always getting it all-in there. With the player's description, I'm actually going to play this type of person a lot tighter than you're reccomending. Variance is a part of the game certainly, but so is making smart plays, and pushing with Jacks every time in that situation is not.

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by imthatguy

There's probably a leak in your game if you're always getting it all-in there. With the player's description, I'm actually going to play this type of person a lot tighter than you're reccomending. Variance is a part of the game certainly, but so is making smart plays, and pushing with Jacks every time in that situation is not.

from the op:

but I am 90% that he doesn't have AA, KK, or QQ,

if this is true, why wouldn't we want to get allin? in that case, wouldn't we be 4:1 dogs 10% of the time, a coinflip 60% or so of the time (with dead money in the pot), and a dominant favorite (with the overpair, one over/one under, or against two unders) 30%?

i like that just fine.

it could be that that 90% read is bogus, that it's a way to rationalize the play. but i dunno, i just have to take the info as given and go from there.

[ontheuptick]

In hand 1, with the JJ, if I wasn't clear, Drunk guy could have had ANYTHING with his preflop raise. They had been showing raises with 3-5 off within the last hour. There was no way to put him on anything. I think my reraise was definitely justified, I didn't want his Q4 to outflop me.

When he repopped, he still could have had many things. We had been bantering back and forth, so I wasn't completely sure that he didn't have like 78s, and just wanted to show me the semi-bluff. I was so sure that he didn't have AA or KK, I just felt like I had him beat. The repop again could have been to strong, but if you were at the table, you may have done the same thing because of how he was playing.

Also, I had a tight image. After I repopped, any sane person would have only went with AA, or KK. And some people would have even layed down KK there possibly, based on how I had been playing. He even said as he made the call, "I am pretty sure you have aces, but I call". I'm not shiiiiting you, he said that.

[ontheuptick]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

it could be that that 90% read is bogus, that it's a way to rationalize the play. but i dunno, i just have to take the info as given and go from there.

I know it sounds bogus, but there was no doubt in my mind I had him. I seriously thought he might have had absolute rags. I think the chance he had rags was better than AA, KK, or QQ, just by the way he played.