[TechnoGuru]

Hand from Saturday Night tournament - 48 players - T3000 - 30 min, this is late in 2nd level - blinds 50/100
$50 Buy-in
$5 Bounties
Points awarded by finish position towards TOC

9 Players - Approx Chip Count +/-
SB - Weak Loose - 2300
BB - Solid - 2600
UTG - Very Solid Aggressive - 3300
UTG+1 - Unknown - 4100
Seat 5 - Unknown - 2300
HERO - 5500
Seat 7 - Weak Tight - 2400
Seat 8 - LAG - 1500
Seat 9- Solid - 3000

UTG Calls 100; +1 Calls 100; Folds to me and I look down to see AA
$350 in pot

I think for a few seconds, then raise $1100 (goal is to just pick up pot); My early play is chip accumulation at this point, since final 2 tables will probably be solid players if I get that far. (current mindset)
I had just shown 88 to take down a decent pot against a bluff on a flush board two hands prior. (table mindset)

Folds all around to UTG+1 who makes a quick call for additional $1000
I consider range of hands - AK; AQ; small pair; based on limp/call.

Heads-up: $2550 in Pot
Flop is 6 8 10 rainbow
UTG+1 - He has played in a few of our tournaments (one cash), yet I have never been at same table, no real read on him. Play has been solid, but not much action and no show-downs this early on, scooped 2 small pots. I know him well socially, he is the pastor at our church.

He quickly checks (I notice his check motion is more aggressive than some previous checks; used stiff fingers instead of flat palm; don't know why I noticed this, but stuck with me)

I bet out 1500 after considering optional plays (from 1200 to all-in)
Villain considers, then flat calls 1500
(I am on alert)

Turn 3
6 8 10 3 board

Villain moves all-in for remaining 2000 and change

Thoughts?

[zeno]

The stench of a set is present, but I don't think you really did anything wrong here.

The only thing I might take issue with is your bet after the flop - what were you trying to accomplish with this? If you're betting for value here then you can't fear the turn card. His call after your flop bet seems to me like he might still like his tptk vs. your pair of nines.

Since you've got him covered I might have made a pot-sized bet (or more) after the flop for information. If he calls or pushes you're dead to an ace. As it plays now, though, you've left the door open for him to try a steal on the turn and put you to the test, which he's done - put you to the test, that is. You don't know what he has.

Having to guess here I'm calling and finding myself on the short stack when he shows his set of tens.

[jojobinks]

looks to me like you're putting him on 66.

i think i need to know a whole lot more about this guy than what you've given me to lay down here, given the size of this shove in relation to the pot. given your preflop read on the guy, the only hand that makes sense that beats you is 66. it's not 33, b/c you say he's solid. 88, i guess, if you think he'd limp call utg like that with that hand. 79s...but that doesn't fit the solid/aggro thing.

i nearly always call given the information at hand.

(i don't think there's any problem with the flop bet. for poster #2: in tournaments, your bets should be smaller than in cash games, mostly b/c you need to get callers more often when you're strong, and you need to commit less chips when you're vulnerable. tournies are about not going bust...making huge flop bets don't help with that.)

[jetra2]

So let's think of his possible starting hands here. TT-KK are possible hands that would get a play like call the BB and then call a huge raise. Personally I think you raised too much...11x BB with only one limper. If your goal was to pick up the pot, I think a raise to 500-700 would be better. He obviously thought that your massive raise was a steal attempt.

Now that flop is very scary if you put him on TT or the very sneaky 9-7 (which you would be 98% to lose), but a hand like 66 or 88 also has you 95 to 5 now.

I'm thinking your best play is to fold face up here. I'm pretty sure he's slowplaying a set.

Jason

[zeno]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

(i don't think there's any problem with the flop bet. for poster #2: in tournaments, your bets should be smaller than in cash games, mostly b/c you need to get callers more often when you're strong, and you need to commit less chips when you're vulnerable. tournies are about not going bust...making huge flop bets don't help with that.)

Jojo - the problem with the flop bet is that it gave him no information. He learned nothing about what his opponent has. He's still wondering if he's up against a set or not, and it opened the door for a saavy opponent to represent a set and steal. OP's pre-flop bet screams AA or KK. If you sensed this, and you wanted to steal, might you play it as the villian has here as well?

If you're betting for value on the flop then the turn doesn't scare you and you call. Unfortunately, we know no more now than we did at the beginning.

In this case I'm probably guessing wrong to a set.

[TechnoGuru]

I like to move these types of threads quickly, so here is part 2 of my post

His shove puts me in the tank big time, so I am replaying every aspect of the hand at this point. I have 2900 in chips

1) His pre-flop play seems strange, although an early limp, then calling a big raise now suggest some type of pair to me. Yes, I probably over raised the pot, but the 2 weak players behind me would not fear calling a 500-700 raise with some weak hands.

2) His check call on the flop seems like a standard online play that I have seen a million times. this reeks of a flopped set. his aggressive hand motion to check is out of place in my mind. I now have a ranges of good possibilities including: 66,88; 10's and he flopped a set; Maybe JJ, unlikey 33, QQ, KK......but A 10 suited also seems like it fits a limp/call from a weaker player. Remember he "seems" solid, but I am not positive.

3) There have been only 1 or 2 bust-outs. TOC points are a premium with this group. A good call, bust a player, and I accumulate chips. A bad call and I still have 900 +/- with blinds coming towards me. Could be down to 750 once the button comes. Not great, but cold be worse


Go....

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by zeno

Jojo - the problem with the flop bet is that it gave him no information. He learned nothing about what his opponent has. He's still wondering if he's up against a set or not, and it opened the door for a saavy opponent to represent a set and steal. OP's pre-flop bet screams AA or KK. If you sensed this, and you wanted to steal, might you play it as the villian has here as well?

If you're betting for value on the flop then the turn doesn't scare you and you call. Unfortunately, we know no more now than we did at the beginning.

In this case I'm probably guessing wrong to a set.

without being rude, i can't find too much else to say but that the above is nonsense. betting 2/3 - 3/4 of the pot is absolutely standard, and tells you A LOT. you don't need to bet an obscene amount to find something out. and besides, who said we were betting for information? we're betting for value, b/c we almost certainly have the best hand. in addition, we're betting to make him make a mistake. no hand he has that's behind has the odds to call this size bet.

check-calling there and then shoving 2k into a 5k pot is a terrible move if you put your opponent on aa/kk and you have nothing.

back to your recommendation...betting pot+ on the flop gives you information, but at what cost? i mean, just open pushing on that flop gives you info too, but i think we can agree it's not the best play.

techno: yeah, i thought you thought 66 from the beginning. AT diamonds too, yeah.

i don't think playing it this way makes sense for QQ/KK, but maybe. if you put him on that range...
Board: 6h 8d Ts 3d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 34.848% 34.85% 00.00% 276 0.00 { KK-QQ, 88, 66, AdTd }
Hand 1: 65.152% 65.15% 00.00% 516 0.00 { AdAh }

getting 2.5:1 you're okay to call there.

if you use a tighter range:
Board: 6h 8d Ts 3d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 95.455% 95.45% 00.00% 252 0.00 { 88, 66, AdTd }
Hand 1: 04.545% 04.55% 00.00% 12 0.00 { AdAh }

then run like hell.

seriously, though, that's a really tight range to put a guy on that you say you don't know much about.

my feeling here (based on your posts) is that you have a feeling you're crushed, and in fact you were crushed. the only thing i don't get yet is what you decided.

seriously, though, in real life (where "knowing" we're crushed here is generally too weak-tight) i think you should call because:

in my experience, the range is WAY bigger. what i see in these small buyins is that guys feel trapped by their own goofy check call on that flop and push the flop with hands like KT, 99, 75, AK-AQ.

[zeno]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

without being rude, i can't find too much else to say but that the above is nonsense.

Jojo - Don't worry about being rude - too late for that Just say what's on your mind. We can agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by jojobinks

betting 2/3 - 3/4 of the pot is absolutely standard, and tells you A LOT. you don't need to bet an obscene amount to find something out. and besides, who said we were betting for information? we're betting for value, b/c we almost certainly have the best hand. in addition, we're betting to make him make a mistake. no hand he has that's behind has the odds to call this size bet.

I'll stick by my analysis. Pot sized bet tells you where you're at in this hand. As played, we have no idea. The bet on the flop accomplished nothing.

If we're betting for value, go ahead an call his bet on the turn. The 3 surely didn't hit him.

Originally Posted by TechnoGuru

I now have a ranges of good possibilities including: 66,88; 10's and he flopped a set; Maybe JJ, unlikey 33, QQ, KK......but A 10 suited also seems like it fits a limp/call from a weaker player. Remember he "seems" solid, but I am not positive.

Yup - that's the problem in a nutshell. Probably a set or tptk. Unfortunately, your bet on the flop didn't clarify anything and also opened up your opponent to a steal attempt.

So, which was it?

[scottwire]

Call this all day and night

What you have learned from his preflop play is that he is a bad player limp calling all those chips out of position for a huge raise (and 1/4 his stack mind you)

check-calling the flop doesn't make him any better of a player

I've seen people do this with crappy hands like 77 thinking they can push you off AK because your flop bet looked like a continuation bet.

One time I had just got caught bluffing and a few hands later I picked up AA in the big blind. Make a huge raise and still got 3 callers. flop T63 and I pushed all in. One guy calls with 55??? (yes he proceeded to runner runner straight me)

INSTACALL PLEASE (you've even got some chips left if you're wrong)

[TechnoGuru]

OK - For anyone who cares, here is how it played out. Jojo and Zeno, thanks for feedback. Having a technical background, I tend to over analyze things at times, and felt I did in this case as I replayed the hand.
I do like my flop bet, as it was significant portion of his stack at this stage. His call is what messed me up. I didn't think he was making a play, too sophisticated for majority of home gamers.

I went with a tight range of possible hands ultimately figuring either 66 or 88 and I was up against a set. In addition, it was still early in the tournament and having 2900 in chips was plenty to start building again. I figured if he had A10 then I made a bad lay down, but I went with percentages and folded face up. No reaction from our villain.

A few of the players at the table made comments like "smart fold"; good lay down, etc.. except one player (UTG Solid Aggressive) who said "you had his A 10 crushed"...

70% of the time, I make the call here. I just went with my gut feeling and the early stage of tournament.

This hand was the talk of table for next minutes. Villain stated "You want me to tell you"...Sure, your a pastor, so you can't lie" (laughs all around). He did not tell me.

***UTG folded pocket 10's because he "knew" I had AA when I raised and would have flopped a set***

At the first break, our Solid Aggressive player tells me he was at a table with the villain about a year prior and witnessed nearly an identical hand in which the villain won with A 10 (making trips on the river) against KK. He was positive this was exactly same scenario. He hit the case 10?

So what were the longer term results, since that played a big part in my decision .....Finished 6th and in the money and enough TOC points to be in 3rd overall this season.

He did end up telling me what he had at the end of the evening...









A 10