[Wooderson]

Ok, I pretty much only play tourneys. Online, in person. I bet I can count on both hands the number of times I have played ring games.

Consequently, I suck. I play super-tight. Whenever I try to get unpredictible, I bust out. I can't bluff. I can't win unless I happen to have a golden horseshoe up my butt.

What is good reading material to help me think about how to play NLHE in a ring game setting? I've applied some of what I have read in LLHE, and it helps, but those are still diffrent beasts as well.

[pie taster]

I'm sure this will be a common response.

Harrington on Hold'em.

There are two volumes. Volume 1 concentrates on overal tournament strategy and Volume 2 deals with the final table and short handed situations.

Very very valuable.

Here is a sample...

http://www.twoplustwo.com/harrington-v1.html

[Spaceman Spiff]

Actually, I don't know how much Harrington would help with ring games. A lot of his concepts are geared toward tournies with ever increasing blinds. In a ring game, the blinds never change, so the concept of M and Q don't really mean nearly as much.

I don't have a good answer for you as far as a book unfortunately. In NL ring games one thing to remember is to not be afraid of busting and rebuying. If you have the correct odds to call, you call. Yes, you will bust and have to buy back in on occasion, but if the odds are in your favor, in the long run, you will be ahead.

Harrington will help with the gameplay aspects of NL, such as bet sizing and common odds situations. Forgot about that.

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff

Actually, I don't know how much Harrington would help with ring games. A lot of his concepts are geared toward tournies with ever increasing blinds. In a ring game, the blinds never change, so the concept of M and Q don't really mean nearly as much.

I don't have a good answer for you as far as a book unfortunately. In NL ring games one thing to remember is to not be afraid of busting and rebuying. If you have the correct odds to call, you call. Yes, you will bust and have to buy back in on occasion, but if the odds are in your favor, in the long run, you will be ahead.

Harrington will help with the gameplay aspects of NL, such as bet sizing and common odds situations. Forgot about that.

supersystem.
getting started in hold em
sklansky/miller book coming out about nlhe ring games this fall.

[CaptLego]

I don't know what books to recommend.

But I would suggest that for small-stakes cash NL, a reasonable strategy is NEVER BLUFF. Bluffs may win you a few small pots, but will rarely win a large one. Some of the reasons are:
1) Busting out is not as dire in cash games as it is in tournies, because they can just buy back in.
2) The blinds are trivially small compared to most pots, so bluffing to steal the blinds just gets you basically nothing.
3) The only time the pot gets large is if two or more people actually have something... maybe a good hand, good draw, or at least a weak hand (2nd or 3rd pair). You're not going to bluff those people out of a pot.

Rather than try to bluff, a better strategy is to wait patiently for a strong hand, then over-bet the hell out of it for value. All those people who can't be bluffed will pay you off. Punish them severly for overpaying for draws or staying with week hands. And, if there's an agressive player at your table who likes to bluff, wait until you've got the goods and pick him off. And, once in a while, you will be able to take down a nice pot by out-bluffing a bluffer, but you have to be careful when you pick your spot.

[CaptLego]

I was at an interesting table the other day... $10max buyin NL on Stars. The table was pretty weak/passive. There was one player who was generally winning. That player had a VP$IP of 80% !!

It seemed that player was following this algorithm:
At every street (pre-flop, flop, turn, river)
1) If it's checked to you -- bet
2) If it's bet to you -- raise
3) If you're re-raised, look at your cards

They took down a huge number of pots, mostly small when everybody folded to their agression. When somebody tangled with him, he occasionally had a good enough hand or sucked out to win a showdown (if it went that far). On balance, though, they were making $.

The table was so tight/weak/passive that this strategy worked. That person was able to get away from a weak hand when he met serious resistance, so he rarely lost a large pot.

Usually, a super-agressive player may build a good stack but they never last long.

[TheMightyJim2k]

There is only one best NLHE ring game book (mentioned earlier):

SUPERSYSTEM (I or II as the NLHE advice is the same in both)

Brunson teaches the hyper-aggressive strategy that is necessary to succeed in a tough ring game. If your game happens to be very loose then his advice still applies, just remember that he says if you are playing with suckers you rarely bluff. If you are playing with tough players, (not necessarily winning or successful players) but those who play tight and think about the game, then his advice is gold.

Read it. then reread it. Then play it. There is a good chance you will find yourself rebuying more often, but once you get the hand of the aggressive style you will also find that most nights you either break even or run the table over.

With a very aggressive style you are constantly going to be picking up small pots. These small pots allow you to move in on people in coin flip and sometimes worse situations because you will have chips to gamble with. If you win these pots you begin the snowball effect that will lead to you dominating the game. If you lose you start chipping away your opponents stacks by winning more small pots.

If you are running good that night you are likely to leave with everyones money. If you are running bad your aggressive play will probably allow you to break even.

I this may seem fishy but its Brunson's advice, and the guy knows what he is doing. I have applied it and it seriously works. None of the people I play with have read it or taken its advice seriously and I continue to beat them with aggression that leaves them with tough decisions to make.

good luck and let me know how it turns out.

[pie taster]

I apologize.. i mis read the original poster's question. I thought he said he was looking for tournament strategies because he didn't play many ring games.

My recommendation for HOH was for tournament play.

[dad604]

HOH I & II by Harrington is not the book for NL cash game, it is gear towards NL tournaments.

I have read SS2 and a few other books that had NL in it. I cann't say that any one is outstanding so far like there is for Limited holdem. Maybe SS2 but I just took what I know from my limited holdem knowledge and adjust it for the NL game. I place more value on high pockets and devalue drawing hands. Also you can bet more on the flop to might it a mistake for drawing hands to call vs a set bet at the limit game.

[Wooderson]

Thanks for all the input so far.

HoH 1 & 2 - don't have either yet (I know - BLASPHEMY!), but mostly tourney as said.

Super System... man, I just need to read this period, so thanks for the reinforcement.

CaptLego, you helped a lot.

1) Busting out is not as dire in cash games as it is in tournies, because they can just buy back in.
2) The blinds are trivially small compared to most pots, so bluffing to steal the blinds just gets you basically nothing.
3) The only time the pot gets large is if two or more people actually have something... maybe a good hand, good draw, or at least a weak hand (2nd or 3rd pair). You're not going to bluff those people out of a pot.

All of these I realized before playing ring games on an intellectual level, but I'm not so sure I did/do on a conscious level, so I doubt they have effected my play. Consciously thinking and talking about them now will effect my future play.

1) If it's checked to you -- bet
2) If it's bet to you -- raise
3) If you're re-raised, look at your cards

Ha! Actually that's the strategy I was using last night on Powerpoker for the very brief time I played a ring game.

Last Lego... what does "That player had a VP$IP of 80%" mean?



Dad - this is great

I place more value on high pockets and devalue drawing hands. Also you can bet more on the flop to might it a mistake for drawing hands to call vs a set bet at the limit game.