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  #11 (permalink)     Top 
Old 07-26-2005, 02:02 PM
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TheMightyJim2k TheMightyJim2k is offline
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actually if you read sklansky or Brunson what you will find is that your assumption that you can draw less in NL and draw more in Limit is not true. If you look at the odds (talking both pot and especially implied) NL frequently gives you a chance to see a relatively cheap flop with the chance to hit a big hand and bust someone. Thus NL gives very high implied odds for suited connectors or low pairs when there is no or only a small preflop raise.

On the other hand it is not profitable to draw all of the time in limit holdem because you are limited to the amount of money you can make if you hit your big hand. If you bet and they call you only win one more bet. Thus there are very small implied odds on low pocket pairs (not very playable in limit) and suited connectors. Limit (according to Bobby Baldwin) is best played with high cards and by pushing hard. It is a more mechanical math based game in which you need less style or surprise to win pots, and simply should be playing hands with higher equity preflop.

If you play online you will find that frequently people will call down to the river with nearly anything in low limit games. What this does is turn the game into a crap shoot where you can only expect to win in the very very long run. Low limit online is basically just a big charity for the rake. A bunch of slightly ahead people playing with a lot of big losers and the site is taking most of the profit.

....Anyway, again I would suggest Supersystem. If you try to play NL ring game like limit or like a tourney you are going to find that you typically win small pots and lose big ones and end up down more than you are up.
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Old 07-26-2005, 03:11 PM
pie taster pie taster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooderson
Last Captn... what does "That player had a VP$IP of 80%" mean?
]
VP$IP = Voluntarily Put Money in the Pot.

It's a way to measure how often someone calls, bets or raises. Instead of folding or checking.

80% is very very very very high. Which indicates they are only folding 1 out of 5 times.
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Old 07-26-2005, 03:27 PM
yeltzen yeltzen is offline
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Championship No Limit & Pot Limit Hold'em by Cloutier.
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  #14 (permalink)     Top 
Old 07-26-2005, 04:26 PM
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SpeakEasy SpeakEasy is offline
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I've played NLHE ring games (live and on-line) and tournaments (multi-table and SNGs) almost exclusively for about a year now. Occasionally, I'll play some limit, and I'm slowly adding 7-card stud, but its mostly NLHE.

Read the SuperSystem NL chapter, and keep in mind that the SuperSystem strategy works well for thinking players. Other than this, there is not a lot good reading material for NL ring games, and I've read a lot. This is surprising, because the NLHE max-buy-in games seem to be the games of choice that are being played in every casino now.

Based on my own experience, here is the natural progression of a NLHE ring game player, if he plays long enough to develop a consistently winning style:

1. “What the hell am I doing?”

This stage involves getting comfortable with the mechanics and routines a NLHE cash game. You will ponder questions such as:
If I’m the first one in pre-flop, what should I raise?
When should I limp vs. raise when I’m the first one in pre-flop?
What hands should I play when someone raises in front of me pre-flop?
Why is that guy raising every time he acts?
Why does that guy frequently raise to 10xBB pre-flop?

2. “Squeaky Tight”

After you learn the basics, the natural progression is to tighten up like a horse’s ass in fly season. You will play the premium starting hands like high pocket pairs and AK or AQ, and throw everything else away in fear of being crushed, trapped, squashed, outplayed and otherwise being relieved of your money. Like some recommend above in this thread, you will never bluff because that’s just a quick trip to bust-out city, baby. Fear of losing is the primary motive behind almost all your actions at this stage.

3. “Loosening up”

Eventually, you will learn that playing so damn tight is extremely predictable, and not all that profitable. You will have some sessions where you see none of the good starting hands, planting the seeds of frustration. Then, you will have several good starting hands cracked in quick succession, losing big pots in the process, and you will want to crawl back, whimpering and sniveling, to the safety of a nice, polite, civilized limit game. In live games, you will start to hear things at the table like, “Watch out, he’s in a pot. He’s got a monster again.” You become the action killer, and players will flee your modest raises.

This will cause you to gradually loosen up, because you can’t make very much playing so tight. This problem is not so pronounced with on-line games, where most of your competition is really not paying any attention to your playing style unless you are engaged in long or repeat sessions with an observant player. In a live game, however, the super-tight player is clearly visible after about 30-40 minutes of play. Even thought this effect of tight play is less pronounced at on-line play, your frustration with waiting for premium hands, and the resulting boredom, should inevitably lead to a looser style of play.

4. “Loose as a Goose”

Probably not all players go through this stage, but I’m guessing a lot do. You’ve logged significant time against a wide variety of opponents, and you are more comfortable at quickly reading opponents and putting them on particular styles. You get more comfortable at reading hands on an instinctual level, and have a better feeling for when you have the best hand and when you’re behind. You get a better feeling for when you can bluff an opponent because he is playing at Uber-Tight Stage 2, and when an opponent may be holding a sneaky monster because he is a loose player, also.

As you get more confident in your game and really loosen up, you learn to trust yourself more. You learn that you can play more loosely because you trust yourself to get away from a second-best hand without losing your entire stack. Combined with a seasoned understanding of position, pot odds and implied pot odds, this confidence may initially take the form of “I’m bullet-proof. I can play any two cards and crush my opponents with the right flop.”

5. “My style”

After you loosen up, and possibly go through the extremely loose stage, you will find your game. You can play loose or tight, and you can shift gears at any time based on the composition of the game. You play strong hands in early position, and loosen up significantly in later position. You might occasionally play some junky hands in early position and catch either a newbie or experienced player off guard. You learn to sense when a bluff will work. You aren’t afraid to make a bluff and lose, because it will pay off later in the same session. Hopefully, you are consistently winning moolah by this stage, and having fun with your game.

Other reading options:
As for learning the nuts and bolts of the NL game, hand-for-hand, find the 2+2 NLHE forums, and READ, READ, READ those threads. Post some hands of your own -- and if you become a fairly regularly poster, you will get some good advice in return. Find the posters that know what they are talking about on 2+2, bookmark those players, and read all of their threads. For example, after Raymer won the WSOP last year, I went back as far as I could on the archives and read tons of his posts about tournament play -- an absolute gold mine of rock-solid, free poker advice. The same is available for NLHE cash play.
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  #15 (permalink)     Top 
Old 07-26-2005, 06:51 PM
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Pot-Limit & No-Limit Poker by Steward Reuben and Bob Ciaffone. I don't care for the Cloutier book at all.
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Old 07-26-2005, 06:57 PM
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The 2+2 forums also have some incredibly funny posters, in addition to all of the awesome advice.
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Old 07-26-2005, 11:46 PM
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Speakeasy makes some good observations. I feel like most players go through an evolutionn often times similar to the one he describes.

His point about learning how to play both styles and shift gears is crucial. If you really want to be successful you have to know when to tighten up and when you can take any two cards and have decent equity. Because of the ability to move all in at any time NL offers enough strategic play to allow for loose play to be profitable.

Not to sound redundant, but whether you are in a tight stage, a loose stage, or are successfully shifting gears...aggression is still very important. If you are going to play a pot you really want to be in control. That is why position and stack size are crucial in NL. You need to have a fairly large stack at the table and you dont want to be caught out of position playing crappy hands.

NL ring games are definitely a game where you have to be willing to bust and go back to your wallet, but if you are successful you will definitely fill your wallet faster than in low limits.
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Old 07-26-2005, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooderson
Thanks for all the input so far.

Captn_All_In, you helped a lot.

Last Captn... what does "That player had a VP$IP of 80%" mean?

Well geez....thanks.... I mean...uh yea anytime I can help....no really any time, just drop me a pm......uh just one sec though.....I have no idea what a VP$IP of 80% is actually you should go ask CaptLego....he knows all about that stuff!!


haha just kidding!!
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