[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by Poboy

I haven't read the book (or posts on 2+2), but SPR is definitely primarily a post flop tool. SPR is generally pot control - and you can't control the pot so much preflop because it(and your hand) has too long to go still. SPR is how to plan your betting with a hand.

I don't have the book on me right now, but on more than one occasion the authors talk about reaching your target SPR by manipulating the pot preflop.

[TheMightyJim2k]

Originally Posted by yeltzen

I don't have the book on me right now, but on more than one occasion the authors talk about reaching your target SPR by manipulating the pot preflop.

BTW, I don't need to read this silly book. NLHE is easy. I'm running at 15PTbb/100 right now. The key is to have a good hand. get it in on the flop or the turn. if you are ahead don't get sucked out on, if you are behind suck out.

SPR my @ss.

but seriously, I think the best discussion of NL theory and play is actually taking place in the limit->NL forum on 2p2. Basically a bunch of limit grinders are all trying to add NL to their repetoire (sp?) so they are bouncing back and forth ideas and theories. Unlike the small and micro stakes NL forums where you often have a lot of lifetime losing players arguing over how to play the hand, this forum is full of long term winning limit poker players who have a very good understanding of the theory and mathematics behind poker. The result is serious and well thought out discussion and suggestions about NL play.

I really suggest people check it out.

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by TheMightyJim2k

BTW, I don't need to read this silly book. NLHE is easy. I'm running at 15PTbb/100 right now. The key is to have a good hand. get it in on the flop or the turn. if you are ahead don't get sucked out on, if you are behind suck out.

SPR my @ss.

but seriously, I think the best discussion of NL theory and play is actually taking place in the limit->NL forum on 2p2. Basically a bunch of limit grinders are all trying to add NL to their repetoire (sp?) so they are bouncing back and forth ideas and theories. Unlike the small and micro stakes NL forums where you often have a lot of lifetime losing players arguing over how to play the hand, this forum is full of long term winning limit poker players who have a very good understanding of the theory and mathematics behind poker. The result is serious and well thought out discussion and suggestions about NL play.

I really suggest people check it out.

Are you calling me a longtime losing player? F U!!!!!!1111eleventy!1

[TheMightyJim2k]

Originally Posted by yeltzen

Are you calling me a longtime losing player? F U!!!!!!1111eleventy!1

nah I figured you would fit right in with the other winning limit players, assuming we looked at the good PT databases....

j/k

but seriously take a look. some really good discussion.

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by TheMightyJim2k

nah I figured you would fit right in with the other winning limit players, assuming we looked at the good PT databases....

j/k

but seriously take a look. some really good discussion.

I did take a look. I'll jump in tonight or tomorrow.

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by yeltzen

I don't have the book on me right now, but on more than one occasion the authors talk about reaching your target SPR by manipulating the pot preflop.

Eh, I'd have to copy almost the whole chapter to show my point, but there are many examples where they show you how raising a different amount or changing your stack size will help you achieve your "target" SPR. Most people play 100BB games and buy-in for the full amount, so this is largely useless. Your options are to raise enough to get your target SPR, or keep the SPR really high. In other words, in a 100BB game, raising too much or not raising at all. Both options are horrible. So, unless you're playing shorter than 100BB or you're playing against a stack shorter than 100BB, SPR is a nice concept that you won't use much. And, yeah, I know that it's just supposed to give you an indication about how the hand will go, but that doesn't really do a whole lot when your SPR is 12 or 13. That tells you that you're screwed if you have AK, which is rarely the case.

[Poboy]

Originally Posted by yeltzen

Eh, I'd have to copy almost the whole chapter to show my point, but there are many examples where they show you how raising a different amount or changing your stack size will help you achieve your "target" SPR. Most people play 100BB games and buy-in for the full amount, so this is largely useless. Your options are to raise enough to get your target SPR, or keep the SPR really high. In other words, in a 100BB game, raising too much or not raising at all. Both options are horrible. So, unless you're playing shorter than 100BB or you're playing against a stack shorter than 100BB, SPR is a nice concept that you won't use much. And, yeah, I know that it's just supposed to give you an indication about how the hand will go, but that doesn't really do a whole lot when your SPR is 12 or 13. That tells you that you're screwed if you have AK, which is rarely the case.

I gathered from the discussion what they said about preflop. I'm disagreeing with them and agreeing with you. I read on another board that the book uses the pot on the flop as the means to count the SPR. That makes sense.

[Savior17]

Originally Posted by yeltzen

Eh, I'd have to copy almost the whole chapter to show my point, but there are many examples where they show you how raising a different amount or changing your stack size will help you achieve your "target" SPR. Most people play 100BB games and buy-in for the full amount, so this is largely useless. Your options are to raise enough to get your target SPR, or keep the SPR really high. In other words, in a 100BB game, raising too much or not raising at all. Both options are horrible. So, unless you're playing shorter than 100BB or you're playing against a stack shorter than 100BB, SPR is a nice concept that you won't use much. And, yeah, I know that it's just supposed to give you an indication about how the hand will go, but that doesn't really do a whole lot when your SPR is 12 or 13. That tells you that you're screwed if you have AK, which is rarely the case.

Agreed. I mostly play in a 100BB game and I ran some scenarios. It doesn't make too much sense and getting down an SPR of 2 or 3 if very difficult. If I try to manipulate the pot to get that low, my guys know I have AA or KK and will only call if they can set mine properly or have at least KK beat - and these scenarios are very rare.

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by Savior17

Agreed. I mostly play in a 100BB game and I ran some scenarios. It doesn't make too much sense and getting down an SPR of 2 or 3 if very difficult. If I try to manipulate the pot to get that low, my guys know I have AA or KK and will only call if they can set mine properly or have at least KK beat - and these scenarios are very rare.

I played around with SPR last week to see if it improved my game at all, but I actually found that it hurt my game. The standard 4xBB + 1 for each limper raising system works much better. Sure, you end up in bad SPR situations a lot, but that's life. Learn to hand-read.

[yeltzen]

Well, I'm done with the book, but I mostly just skimmed the last 20 or so pages. I will be interested in seeing what the consensus on the book is a few months from now. I feel No Limit Hold'em Theory and Practice is by far the stronger book. The major thing I took from Professional No Limit Hold'em is that you should have already decided you're committed before you actually commit. That has helped me a lot, because my tendency is to play it street-by-street, and I usually go for the most passive option. By committing before the money goes in, I can't out-think myself any more. I like it.

Overall, though, too much time is spent on SPR, which really is not that useful of a concept, in my opinion (as I'm sure you've gathered), and not enough time is spent on REM and general hand reading. That's the stuff that makes you a great no limit player. Knowing when and how to commit is great, and it will make you a consistent winner, but being able to put people on hands and take advantage of playing tendencies is what will make you a big consistent winner. Also, SPR straddles the fence of going against the big pot-big hand, small pot-small hand mentality. Unless you're a short stack, getting your target SPR will require building a pretty big pot preflop with hands like AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, QQ, etc. Those are decent hands, but hardly big hands. I don't really know how I feel about trying to get an SPR of 4-7 preflop with these hands. If you miss, can you really c-bet? You're going to be putting a huge amount of your stack in the pot at this point on a bluff. I much prefer keeping the pot relatively small with AQ and then c-betting a smallish amount if I miss. I like picking up these little pots. I don't want to have to risk half my stack on a c-bet.

The book is pretty cheap (like all 2+2 books), so I would recommend it to everyone, but I would advise taking the SPR section with a grain of salt. The examples they show are very, very contrived. They always work out perfectly so you can get the exact SPR you want, and the villain always wants to get all in against you. Please. The majority of the situations you'll run into are that the people in the hand have 100BB stacks, and you'll be unable to get a good SPR without playing like a dope. As long as you understand that SPR is just a general guideline for figuring out how the money is most likely to go in, the book will be helpful. If you start adjusting your preflop game based on it, I think you'll be in trouble.