[yeltzen]

I started glancing over this book again, mostly because I'm bored and (not surprisingly) don't know what else to do with myself. Anyways, the last time I read this book, it was on the beach, so I probably wasn't paying attention much. Anyways, I get to the "Sizing Your Preflop Raises" section today, and I read this gem in the Final Thoughts:

Don't listen to pundits that tell you to keep your raises a constant size. Make smaller raises... with "small pot hands"... make larger raises... with "big pot" hands.

In general, I don't have much problem with the first sentence. If you don't want to keep your raises a constant size, more power to you. The second part, though... wow. I did a double-take. I know that this has been talked to death on 2+2, but I didn't really know what they were babbling on about until I read this today.

How did that make it into this book, exactly? I mean, varying your preflop raises is fine, but raising more with "big pot" hands than with "small pot" hands? Sounds like a recipe for disaster. Another example of the big hand-big pot/small hand-small pot mentality being blown out of proportion.

DISCUSS IN THIS EXCLUSIVE FIRST THREAD IN TEH POKAR BOOKS SEXTION!

[TheMightyJim2k]

any more details on what they are saying? are they talking post or pre flop. Sitting at work the book is at home on my desk.

quick threadjack:

also boris....I'm getting my ass handed to me this month in shorthanded limit, most of it is variance, but some of it is bad play/ tilt (which I rarely do). Should I keep grinding 3/6 and take another shot at 5/10 next month, or give NL a try?

caveat: I may not listen to your advice at all, but just wondering what a former limit guy thinks about switching to NL.

[A-Ro]

Aren't they talking about small pot hands = very few to no limpers and large pot hands = many limpers.

Meaning your raise is dependent on whats in the pot (assuming you have a hand worth raising with). That way a smallish raise won't just get called by everyone but, you're still giving yourself decent odds.

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by TheMightyJim2k

any more details on what they are saying? are they talking post or pre flop. Sitting at work the book is at home on my desk.

Sorry, the chapter is actually called "Sizing Your Preflop Raises".

Originally Posted by TheMightyJim2k

quick threadjack:

also boris....I'm getting my ass handed to me this month in shorthanded limit, most of it is variance, but some of it is bad play/ tilt (which I rarely do). Should I keep grinding 3/6 and take another shot at 5/10 next month, or give NL a try?

caveat: I may not listen to your advice at all, but just wondering what a former limit guy thinks about switching to NL.

Well, my reasons for quitting limit were: 1) the full ring limit games became way too tight, even at the wimpy stakes I was playing, and 2) I'm a terrible short-handed player.

I'm assuming that you're a very good short-handed player, so that wouldn't be a very good reason to quit. But, if you're getting killed, you could always take a break and try some NL. The good thing about NL cash games is that the low-stakes games are so terrible that you can pretty much run them over as long as you're not playing like a complete idiot. The bad thing about NL cash games is that you have to just sit there and sit there and sit there until you flop the nuts unless you're extremely good.

Originally Posted by A-Ro

Aren't they talking about small pot hands = very few to no limpers and large pot hands = many limpers.

Meaning your raise is dependent on whats in the pot (assuming you have a hand worth raising with). That way a smallish raise won't just get called by everyone but, you're still giving yourself decent odds.

They're actually talking about the hand itself... like if you have AA preflop, this is a "big pot" hand, so you should raise more. That is, if you have a hand that you want action with, you should raise more (big pot hand), and if you have a hand you don't want action with, you should raise less (small pot hand). There are exceptions, of course, but that quote in the final thoughts was pretty alarming.

[A-Ro]

It makes absolutely no sense if you WANT action to raise more and vice versa.

[TheMightyJim2k]

I think I can agree with raising more with AA if you find yourself having trouble making post-flop decisions. The reason being that if you raise more pf you essentially turn your med-large stack into a small stack since the betting increases exponentially on each round. This makes you hand much easier to play, especially since it tends to leave big card hands only and makes two-suited-975-flops much less scary.

However if you can play AA well after the flop AND you playing deep-stacked I don't think that raising big is necessarily the best play.

Also I don't think this strategy can work from a game theory perspective unless you are also willing to mix it up and occasionally raise bigger with a 76s or small pkt pair, or occasionally play a hand like AA in a different manner.

I don't know if that made any sense but it helped me kill another 5 minutes at work.

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by A-Ro

It makes absolutely no sense if you WANT action to raise more and vice versa.

Actually, as I'm reading this, there's a lot of double-speak in the chapter. First, they say to raise as much as you can while still getting called when you have a hand you want action with. This is still terrible advice, however, since even the dumbest players will catch on to this.

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by TheMightyJim2k

Also I don't think this strategy can work from a game theory perspective unless you are also willing to mix it up and occasionally raise bigger with a 76s or small pkt pair, or occasionally play a hand like AA in a different manner.

This is the whole crux of the issue. Especially in cash games, the worst thing you can possibly do is vary your raises based on the strength of your hand. I have found that just raising either a constant amount, or an amount that varies based on POSITION only is the best way to go. Of course, you always vary your raise based on how many limpers are in the pot, too (i.e. you pretty much make close to a pot-sized raise). The players in low-stakes cash games are stupid, but they're not THAT stupid.

[TheMightyJim2k]

also I will say that I find that much of NLTAP's advice seems more geared towards looser live games were 5-10xbb raises will get called pretty frequently.

I think the cash games online play significantly smaller and tighter pf, and raises like that will likely just blow everyone out of the hand.

[A-Ro]

Originally Posted by yeltzen

This is the whole crux of the issue. Especially in cash games, the worst thing you can possibly do is vary your raises based on the strength of your hand. I have found that just raising either a constant amount, or an amount that varies based on POSITION only is the best way to go. Of course, you always vary your raise based on how many limpers are in the pot, too (i.e. you pretty much make close to a pot-sized raise). The players in low-stakes cash games are stupid, but they're not THAT stupid.

I agree with you...having your raise being based on your hand strength is DUMB!