[Wooderson]

I haven't read NLHET&P, so my thoughts are worthless. THat's never kept me from expressing myself, so here goes. I always thought a "big pot hand" was something kinda sneaky, like say 67s. Now are you gonna raise 3xBB+1/limp with tat. Maybe depending on position and your reads on the players. But it also seems that raising large against decent players with AA is a recipe for taking the pot pre-flop, not getting action.

Discuss how I'm a moron.

[jojobinks]

raising more with big pot hands doesn't mean raise more with AA and KK. it means raise more with any of the hands that will tend to win huge pots. this includes, for the most part pairs and suited connectors.

disclaimer: i'm not agreeing (necessarily), just clarifying.

the reason for this suggestion is that the goal is to get all your chips in (and asap) when you hit your set / flop your flush / flop the straight / some other big combo draw. (see the section about bet sizing on pages 45-5

they also recommend raising a little less with AK (which is more likely to make a one pair hand (which is more likely to win small pots/lose big ones)).

i agree very much that this advice is weird considering the fact that the others at the table are thinking opponents. i don't know how i feel about it. generally speaking, i continue to bet a standard 4x.

there is some other, better, raising advice i like in the tactics section (looking for it now)...concept 28, which says essentially you should raise a smaller amount to sweeten the pot with a big preflop hand or make a big enough bet that you aren't both telegraphing KK and yet offering implied odds for someone to hit a set. the example was a 5/10 game where you raise KK to 80 after 2 limpers (with 800 more in your stack). you offer them 10:1, but raise enough to show you have a big one. bad news. by raising more, you'll still probably pay off a set, but without giving proper rate of return on their preflop investment.

in sum: i agree, varying preflop raises based on hand strength is...suboptimal. but giving away your hand strength while denying the opportunity for them to get paid of sufficiently seems okay.

[Poboy]

I haven't read the book, but I agree that it is much better to size preflop raise by position than card strength. Especially since a medium pair is/can be a big pot hand, but unless you flop your set, it's a hand you are going to hate post flop.

Originally Posted by TheMightyJim2k

also boris....I'm getting my ass handed to me this month in shorthanded limit, most of it is variance, but some of it is bad play/ tilt (which I rarely do). Should I keep grinding 3/6 and take another shot at 5/10 next month, or give NL a try?

caveat: I may not listen to your advice at all, but just wondering what a former limit guy thinks about switching to NL.

I played limit and short handed limit before switching to NL recently (I've got about 5K hands in, spread over 2 months I think). I quit SH limit because my swings were exactly the same, up 100BB, down 100BB, rinse and repeat. I'd consider myself a pretty good SH limit player. In my downswings, I felt like I was pushing marginal hands more - knowing my TP was good and betting/raising it, even if it was easily outdrawn. I got tired of the game (except check/raise bluffing the turn, I love that move) and kind of played it by rote instead of fully concentrating.
I like small stakes NL (6max) a lot. Like yeltzen said, it's very profitable if you have the patience to sit there and wait for the one hand that doubles you up. I think playing 6max limit really helped my reading skills, which help in profitability. And it's somewhat comforting being able to fold. Far fewer crying calls. You're sure to get bluffed once in a while, but you just bluff someone else and it all works out. Limit is too much work, too much thinking. Small stakes NL, as long as you're average in skill, you'll make money.

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

i agree very much that this advice is weird considering the fact that the others at the table are thinking opponents. i don't know how i feel about it. generally speaking, i continue to bet a standard 4x.

there is some other, better, raising advice i like in the tactics section (looking for it now)...concept 28, which says essentially you should raise a smaller amount to sweeten the pot with a big preflop hand or make a big enough bet that you aren't both telegraphing KK and yet offering implied odds for someone to hit a set. the example was a 5/10 game where you raise KK to 80 after 2 limpers (with 800 more in your stack). you offer them 10:1, but raise enough to show you have a big one. bad news. by raising more, you'll still probably pay off a set, but without giving proper rate of return on their preflop investment.

The biggest problem I have with it is in blind stealing situations. The majority of the time, you're going to try and steal with trash, and it's not going to take people very long to realize that your "small pot" raises on the button are a sign that they should play back at you. Plus, I would imagine that the majority of players don't have the cahones to make a "big pot" raise in a stealing situation with trash and that, even if they did, it probably still isn't very smart. If you just raise a constant amount, you don't have to worry about any of this.

I will still switch it up a little and raise less or more in some situations, but I would prefer that the blinds just look at the raise as the same size all of my raises are, and just make a value play. That makes my life easier. If I raise a little more than usual, or a little less, and they play back at me, then I have to start thinking about whether they think the raise means something, and whether their reraise means something, etc.

Concept 28 makes more sense, IMO. Especially when it comes to how a "tweener" raise gives you the worst of both worlds.

Originally Posted by Poboy

And it's somewhat comforting being able to fold. Far fewer crying calls. You're sure to get bluffed once in a while, but you just bluff someone else and it all works out. Limit is too much work, too much thinking. Small stakes NL, as long as you're average in skill, you'll make money.

Learning to fold in NL was a tough thing for me to learn. I'm still learning, actually. It's hard to not pay people off since you can just reload. Fact of the matter, though, is that people just don't bluff that much at these levels unless they're total maniacs. Turn and River bets almost always mean what they look like (small = weak, big = strong). I'm better now, and I can fold when I think I'm beat, but I still have moments where I totally screw up.

[jojobinks]

why in the world would you steal blinds in a nlhe cash game?

stack = $25. blinds = .35

what's the point?

[Poboy]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

why in the world would you steal blinds in a nlhe cash game?

stack = $25. blinds = .35

what's the point?

Yeah, I don't steal much at least at the stakes I play. I steal only enough to partially keep up with my folding to steals. Much more effective and profitable are re-steals, or flop steals. There's almost always some shmoe who tries to pick up the pot if there are two or more limpers. Just resteal from him once or twice, and it's like 10 blind steals. Or squeeze play once in a while. Even then, stealing isn't that important in small stakes at least, because people still call your value bets.

Originally Posted by yeltzen

Learning to fold in NL was a tough thing for me to learn. I'm still learning, actually. It's hard to not pay people off since you can just reload. Fact of the matter, though, is that people just don't bluff that much at these levels unless they're total maniacs. Turn and River bets almost always mean what they look like (small = weak, big = strong). I'm better now, and I can fold when I think I'm beat, but I still have moments where I totally screw up.

I think reading skills from SH limit helped me a lot, as well as there sometimes being no way I can call X amount with the hand I have. Plus, there are standard bluffs, like the 2+ limpers one I mentioned, or raising ragged flops after a cbet. So once you identify the ones likely to pull these moves, you'll have a better idea of the likelihood a bet/raise is a bluff.

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

why in the world would you steal blinds in a nlhe cash game?

stack = $25. blinds = .35

what's the point?

Pretty much because 6-max NL games on FullTilt are tight and you can get away with it.

[Poboy]

Those are the ones you re-raise steal, or steal from post flop.