[Harlequin011]

TMJ2K gave me this book in a x-mas exchange.

It has provided some tremendous insight on the way people behave. I've made some really decent money because of this book.

[Hokemon]

Read the book a couple of months ago and have picked up some clear tells. My fav is when "happy feet" strikes. Hard to keep from laughing. Decent book worth the read.

[xtwalker]

I play in a game where if there is a re-raise, with a call, the pot generally grows to a minimum $400-500. I don't think I am to the point where I am throwing around three digit bets without looking at my hole cards, or the board just yet.

I have made several hundred dollar wagers based very largly on a read, but I was also taking the board and what I believed to be my percieved hand possibilities into account. Those are very rewarding wins when you are right, but last time I played I lost $600 in one hand because I was wrong. I had KK and other player had AA. I had put him on QQ based on actions, four hrs of play and the J high flop. Oh well...

[Irish Se7en]

jojo now that you have had the time to read the book what is your overall opinion on it?

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by Irish Se7en

jojo now that you have had the time to read the book what is your overall opinion on it?

i think it's aight. it provides some new stuff that caro didn't have...but not a ton. there are some things that are truly annoying...phil hellmuth type self-promotion and repetition.

but there are some good things. mostly i've used it to try to control myself. i'm pretty expressive with my body language / facial expressions, and i notice it quite a bit more now. i don't know who's paying attention and who's not, but i'm working on controlling it.

still...i don't think it's easy to pick up much from others, aside from the most obvious stuff. that stuff, the most common and obvious and reliable tells, are in caro's book.

i guess it's worth it's price, though. sure. i just wouldn't recommend that people take it too literally (his feet are bouncing, so he's got the nut!).

real world use? tonight i chopped 4-ways in a B&M tourny at muckleshoot ($650 woot), and didn't pick up a read 'em and weep tell all night. i was too busy seeing the guys on my left getting ready to fold.

[BrettButter]

I used to rely on a lot of physical tells for the people I played with, then I just got cocky and lazy.

Eventually I'd like to find another game to play in, and when that time comes that I actually find a game I like around here, I'm going to be vastly unprepared.

Going into a completely new group of people that I have never seen or played with, can you see this book helping me at all? I've read Caro's book a few times, and I'm not a complete idiot when it comes to poker, but does this book have enough more to warrant actually buying it?

[xtwalker]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

tonight i chopped 4-ways in a B&M tourny at muckleshoot ($650 woot), and didn't pick up a read 'em and weep tell all night. i was too busy seeing the guys on my left getting ready to fold.

Muckleshoot in WA? I have been playing at Tulalip recently and really like their card room. Have heard good things about Muckleshoot, but it is a pretty far drive for me. (Whidbey Island)

[SpeakEasy]

Originally Posted by xtwalker

I play in a game where if there is a re-raise, with a call, the pot generally grows to a minimum $400-500. I don't think I am to the point where I am throwing around three digit bets without looking at my hole cards, or the board just yet.

Then you're playing above your bankroll. Dollar amount doesn't matter. In a typical NL cash game, standard raise is 3-4xBB and re-raise is to 9-12xBB. If you can't re-raise to 9-12xBB for the hell of it on occasion, you're playing above your bankroll, plain and simple.

[xtwalker]

Originally Posted by SpeakEasy

Then you're playing above your bankroll. Dollar amount doesn't matter. In a typical NL cash game, standard raise is 3-4xBB and re-raise is to 9-12xBB. If you can't re-raise to 9-12xBB for the hell of it on occasion, you're playing above your bankroll, plain and simple.

I have played re-raises with, lets say, questionable cards, and I do a lot where my actions are based more on the board and my read than on my cards, but I don't need to handicap myself completely then play for all my chips...

My point was that in a game where you can only buy in for 60x BB and you commit 12-15 BB pre-flop, than I want to know what is on the board, and in my hand, before I make any moves. Most importantly I want to at least know if my opponents moves make sense with his hand possibilities.

I think if you don't even look at the board you are robbing yourself of too much information. Then your bank roll doesn't matter and it doesn't matter if you are playing a $20 buy-in or a $200k buy-in.

[w16227]

I think that you missed speak's point,

If you are concerned with the $$$$ and cannot play a hand blind, then the stakes are either too rich for you, or you are not able to disassociate yourself from the cash involved to the extent that you need to. Even if you can afford to play $200-$300 pots, this does not mean that you are in the right frame of mind at the poker table. Thinking of the game in terms of how much is in play on any given hand can result in all kinds of bad things happening. Most often, people play "not to lose".

What he is describing is a common exercise - eliminating the information that is only somewhat necessary for playing the hand. Your cards, the board cards, and your opponents cards are only a SMALL part of the game. The other players tendencies are actually a lot more important to the overall equation. Playing a hand blind forces you to focus on what can be the most powerful tool in the box - evaluating your opponents body language. If you really have a read on someone, the cards do not matter that much.

There is a variation of this that people do online for practice. Use a post-it on your screen and cover your hole cards. Play a SnG using only position and bet patterns to guide your moves (you do not cover the board). This trains you to see exactly how important this information is and that your cards are only a part of the overall equation.

This is not to say that you should play entire sessions like this, especially in cash games. BUT - once you are good enough to be able to play hands bind against your regular table, you are now EXTREMELY dangerous. Now, you do not only pick up the pots that you would win anyway with your strong holdings and flops that nail you, but you can swing extra hands that might be losers without these skills. You get away from those 2-3 hands where you hit that flop, yet it crushes the other guy, and pick up 2-3 hands a night where you win a pot when you can push them off of a better hand.

Think about that - the skills that you need to do what speak described can swing several hands a night your way.

Originally Posted by xtwalker

I have played re-raises with, lets say, questionable cards, and I do a lot where my actions are based more on the board and my read than on my cards, but I don't need to handicap myself completely then play for all my chips...

My point was that in a game where you can only buy in for 60x BB and you commit 12-15 BB pre-flop, than I want to know what is on the board, and in my hand, before I make any moves. Most importantly I want to at least know if my opponents moves make sense with his hand possibilities.

I think if you don't even look at the board you are robbing yourself of too much information. Then your bank roll doesn't matter and it doesn't matter if you are playing a $20 buy-in or a $200k buy-in.