[Guma]

Let me see the table for those who may not have this book...

Chip Count
SB: 140,000
BB: 600,000
Player A: 11,000
Player B: 200,000
Player C: 200,000
Player D: 50,000
Player E: 100,000
You: 200,000
Player G: 200,000

Situation: Final Table of a Major Tournament

Your Hand: 5h5d

Action to you: Player A goes all-in for 11,000. Player E calls. Pot is 36400

Question: Do you fold, call or raise?

Discuss!

[Guma]

Here is where I disagree with Harrington's answer.

He says to raise because Player A is about to get eaten up by the blinds and is making a desperation move. He wants to push Player E out of the pot and go heads up with Player A.

Disagree: We have a small pocket pair and we can't say for sure that Player A doesn't have something of a hand. For me I want to call. This is definetly going to bring the BB into the hand since the pot will be 47,400 and he only needs to call 5000. I am hoping these players understand Implicit Collusion and check the hand down. Why? We are at the final table of a Major Tournament and we are in the money and one position in the payout schedule is a huge difference in my Take. I want Player A GONE! If that means I let this pot go but move up on the payout schedule then I will take the trade off.

I see my flaw in this reasoning is that I am content with making more money and not necessarily winning the tournament. Does that make my play weak or safe?

[jaeden]

Originally Posted by Guma

Here is where I disagree with Harrington's answer.

He says to raise because Player A is about to get eaten up by the blinds and is making a desperation move. He wants to push Player E out of the pot and go heads up with Player A.

Disagree: We have a small pocket pair and we can't say for sure that Player A doesn't have something of a hand. For me I want to call. This is definetly going to bring the BB into the hand since the pot will be 47,400 and he only needs to call 5000. I am hoping these players understand Implicit Collusion and check the hand down. Why? We are at the final table of a Major Tournament and we are in the money and one position in the payout schedule is a huge difference in my Take. I want Player A GONE! If that means I let this pot go but move up on the payout schedule then I will take the trade off.

I see my flaw in this reasoning is that I am content with making more money and not necessarily winning the tournament. Does that make my play weak or safe?

I totally agree with what you have said. I am sure that if you are at that final table that the hand will be checked down unless someone has a monster hand they need to protect. I don't see the point in raising here. Player E could have a big hand and if you raise you might just lose unnecessary chips to him/her if you check it down.

[bigjohn]

Call and check it down... If you hit a set then bet it out, but to eliminate the player is the key here... also looks at herrintons point of view (he has an ass load of $$), the respect gained by winning a tourney is much more importaint then the extra $$. For me its all about the money no matter what place I take. (I don't have the book)

[ACE'S FULL]

I am by no means a pro at poker but here is my thoughts on this... I have the book I am still reading HOHI so here goes.... You are sitting at the table tied with 3 others with T200,000 now guy goes all-in for 11,000 then you get a call. Action is to you now with 3 others left to act one of them is the chip leader. I agree with Harrington here. I also think your table image would come into play here as well. Note you may not have the best hand at this point but if you can get the 3 others to fold along with player E that just called the all-in, this would give you a better shot of winning the hand. Lets just say that player A has a hand (i.e. non pocket pair) its a coin flip... This is a much better senario then calling and letting the big stack push us out...
Dont get me wrong I am all about the money as well when playing tourneys, however I have lost more than I have won making this same kind of play. The least amount of appontents that you face the better chances you have to win!


Okay, now everyone can pick me apart with my bad advise...

[Guma]

There is no bad advice here which is why I made it a discussion I want to hear different thoughts on this...

That being said, I agree, fewer opponents gives us a better chance to win the hand. You bring up a good point if the big stack comes in he could push us out with his stack, but if I were the big stack I would not attack two players with a chip count 1/3 of my own. I would be more content with letting them battle it out instead of putting my big stack at an unneeded risk. In the BB I would be more inclined to make the call and check it down unless I hit a monster and knew I had the AI beat.

Talking about the BB is a tangent but it goes back to putting an opponent on a hand and thinking through how you would play from that position so you can determine your own play.

[yeltzen]

I disagree with a ton of the hands in all three volumes. This is definitely one of them. I don't understand the point of re-opening the betting when you have a weak hand and are getting 3-to-1. Plus, there are people to act behind you (including the chip leader). A crap hand that you might get to see cheaply could end up costing you a quarter of your stack. I understand the idea of getting into a coinflip situation with $11,000+ of dead money in the pot, but if someone comes back over the top of you after a raise, you're going to vomit. No thanks.

[ACE'S FULL]

Originally Posted by yeltzen

I disagree with a ton of the hands in all three volumes. This is definitely one of them. I don't understand the point of re-opening the betting when you have a weak hand and are getting 3-to-1. Plus, there are people to act behind you (including the chip leader). A crap hand that you might get to see cheaply could end up costing you a quarter of your stack. I understand the idea of getting into a coinflip situation with $11,000+ of dead money in the pot, but if someone comes back over the top of you after a raise, you're going to vomit. No thanks.

I didnt think about this... Great point!

[jmc]

Player A could have anything, so there's a decent chance you're ahead of his range. w/ 55, you'd much prefer to play him headsup all-in preflop.

If you fold, that's kinda weak since it's only 5% of your stack to call, w/ excellent odds.

If you flat call, your 55:
If player A has something like A2, player E has KJ, and BB has 2 random cards, 55 only wins like 28% of the time. Headsup against player A, you're usually better than 50%. Also, if BB looks down and sees something like 33 or 66, he could make a substantial raise and you'll have a tough call to make (essentially making the play that you didn't).

If you raise to something like 50k, you'll price the 3 players behind you out of the pot. You might even get someone to lay down a medium pair like 66-99. Also, if you fold out player E, you get his dead money in the pot as overlay against a possibly lucky player A. If player E goes all-in, you can call getting 3:1.

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by jmc

If player E goes all-in, you can call getting 3:1.

This is the part I don't like. You go from risking 1/20 of your stack to potentially risking 1/2 of it on a pair of 5s when you can't be any better than about 50% to win. If I'm in the BB, I don't mind trying to get it heads up. With 4 people left to act after my raise, I don't like it at all.