[scottwire]

The blinds are 3k/6k

The raise to 11k is desperation and he can have anything.

55 stands to be the best hand a good deal of the time.

The call from player E tells me he has a weak hand.

If you flat call, you are allowing someone else to do the play you should be doing in the first place. Calling here tells everyone "hi i have a small or mid pair or suited connectors please raise so I can fold".

A raise is the best play here. If someone comes back over the top so be it.

Now don't get me wrong, I usually don't have the balls to do it and I usually call or fold hoping to keep my stack intact and move up in the money etc, but tactically it is the best play.

[tomb1]

If you flat call here . . . if one of the next players raises (like all-in) are you going to fold? If yes, then fold right now.

I don't think calling is a good choice (like Player E just did). The likelihood that (1) you will get all the other players to fold or call, AND (2) you'll hit a set on the flop are nil. So if you happen to see the flop cheaply and don't hit your set, you're gonna fold to any bet. Fold now and save the 11K.

Best choice here IMO (a little better than folding) is to raise big and hope to isolate the short stack. Take your chances with 55 against a desperation move.

Now I gotta look up the hand on HOH2.

[Savior17]

I just read this section and am up to Section 11 problems. I did disagree with a bunch of the problems also. Some moves were based only on pricing, some on table image, etc. There is a lot to look at here as everyone noted in their replies (eliminating a player). I agree with a call here.
I don't think the value of the hand warrants a raise with the BB still to act. Heads up - I like my odds. Player E's call is a little suspect to me for different reasons - one of them being that there are still larger stacks left to play. If BB raises and E calls, I am happy to get out of the way.
The one thing I try to keep in mind is that DH is using these as examples of how certain strategies work (albeit with hands I might not use to do the same). If I have a higher pair here, I make a move. Other than that, I call.

[yeltzen]

I would have no problem with the raise if it didn't essentially commit you to the pot in the event of a reraise. Unless the BB reraises all in, you're almost going to be forced to call (even in that case you probably have to). Assuming player E doesn't call, if any of the 200,000 stacks go all-in, you'll be getting very close to 2-to-1 to call the all-in (280,000 in the pot, 150,000 to call). It just seems like you're turning what started as a marginal hand into the possibility of the biggest hand in the tournament for you.

[Savior17]

Originally Posted by scottwire

Now don't get me wrong, I usually don't have the balls to do it and I usually call or fold hoping to keep my stack intact and move up in the money etc, but tactically it is the best play.

Same here and I would raise if I had more experience/balls. DH and other pros make moves I would not currently make because I would only get myself in trouble. [I am working on this, though.] This is a leak I am trying to fix.

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by Savior17

I just read this section and am up to Section 11 problems. I did disagree with a bunch of the problems also. Some moves were based only on pricing, some on table image, etc.

Exactly. I understand that Dan is trying to make the game as simple as possible, but I think taking the whole "pot odds dictate" thing to an extreme is just as bad as ignoring pot odds altogether (not in a cash game, of course, just in tournaments) and it contradicts a lot of what was in previous 2+2 books (TPFAP). Sure, 2-to-1 odds look good in a 50/50 situation. But what if you'll get 2-to-1 odds in a 67/33 situation later on? Wouldn't you rather have your chips for that bet?

I'm going to make my own tournament book - "Tight/Passive/Weak Tournament Poker for Advanced Players"

[Savior17]

Originally Posted by yeltzen

Exactly. I understand that Dan is trying to make the game as simple as possible, but I think taking the whole "pot odds dictate" thing to an extreme is just as bad as ignoring pot odds altogether (not in a cash game, of course, just in tournaments) and it contradicts a lot of what was in previous 2+2 books (TPFAP). Sure, 2-to-1 odds look good in a 50/50 situation. But what if you'll get 2-to-1 odds in a 67/33 situation later on? Wouldn't you rather have your chips for that bet?

I'm going to make my own tournament book - "Tight/Passive/Weak Tournament Poker for Advanced Players"

Pot odds are little scary because they can be manipulated easily. I do it heads-up a lot to induce a bad call or force a fold. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. I would not have them totally dictate my play. You have to look at the table, tourney type, position, how much you are ITM, etc.

[jmc]

Originally Posted by yeltzen

This is the part I don't like. You go from risking 1/20 of your stack to potentially risking 1/2 of it on a pair of 5s when you can't be any better than about 50% to win. If I'm in the BB, I don't mind trying to get it heads up. With 4 people left to act after my raise, I don't like it at all.

If you don't like putting too much of your stack at risk, raise to something like 25k, and throw your hand away if the big stack puts you all in. If everyone else folds, Player E will probably be forced to call due to the odds. If it's a lowball flop, you can try to bet him off the hand and take the extra 13k in the sidepot.

The other way to do it is to just shove all your chips in. If you think the players behind you are fairly smart, they can't call unless they have something in the neighborhood of QQ+. Your 200k is large enough that if they call and lose, they're out of the tournament. Even the big stack shouldn't be happy putting 1/3 of his stack at risk. Add to this, the fact that player E *might* have a big hand, so the button, SB, and BB can't call. You're gambling that player E doesn't have much of a hand, and his presence puts a "squeeze" on the other players.

[Hopin2Steal]

Pocket pair and a big stack? I call. At least, I *used* to. These days, I might raise E to 20,000 so there's a good side pot to take down.

EDIT: I forgot that BB was still yet to act. These days, I'd raise. Make it $24k.

Originally Posted by Guma

Let me see the table for those who may not have this book...

Chip Count
SB: 140,000
BB: 600,000
Player A: 11,000
Player B: 200,000
Player C: 200,000
Player D: 50,000
Player E: 100,000
You: 200,000
Player G: 200,000

Situation: Final Table of a Major Tournament

Your Hand: 5h5d

Action to you: Player A goes all-in for 11,000. Player E calls. Pot is 36400

Question: Do you fold, call or raise?

Discuss!

[mac40k]

Player A has to push with any two decent cards and everyone at the table knows this. Player E says, "I've got a decent hand, but not a strong enough hand to put a large chunk of my stack at risk. If I call, the pot odds get better for each successive caller. If everyone is a gentleman and checks it down, we all move up one place in the money." Weak!

First of all, a call here is super weak. You're making it nearly impossible for the players behind you to fold. The more people in the hand, the more likely it is that someone is going to hit the flop, bet since they improved, and you will have to fold. Even if it is checked down the whole way, how likely is it that your fives are the best hand at showdown?

Secondly, there are still decent sized stacks behind you, including the chip leader. There is no guarantee that everyone will play nice and just call behind to cooperate in eliminating A.

You could push, but that's more risk than you need to take. There are still 3 players to act behind you, including 2 that could put you out if they wake up with a big hand.

Now a raise does several things. You announce to the players behind you that you have a hand. You give them bad pot odds to call and you'll have position on everyone but the Button after the flop, so they really do need a big hand to play. If E calls, you still have position on him, so unless he hits the flop big, your continuation bet probably pushes him out and you pick up the side pot. Even if A goes on to win the main pot, you stand to make a profit on the side pot. However, since E just called instead of raise himself preflop, there's a good chance he gets out of the way leaving you heads up against A. Yes, you may be no better than a coin flip if he has two overcards to your small pair and you'll be in seriously bad shape if he holds a higher pair, but you can't lose more than 11k in this case, yet you do have a chance to win.

If you raise and get re-raised, you can comfortably fold here knowing that you're probably beat, but at least A is as well and you'll move up in the money. If you just call and get raised, you might be tempted to call, especially if the pot odds are right, yet you'll know less about where you stand in the hand. If you don't hit your set, and the pre-flop raiser makes a continuation bet, you'll have to fold anyway. Even if he checks after the flop, can you afford to bet anything but the set? He may be trapping, which means you'll have to give/take the free card and chance that he may draw out on you even if he missed the flop. Calling then calling a raise costs you at least as much as raising then folding to a re-raise, but gives the other player the advantage.

Raising gives you the best chance to win while actually minimizing your risk. Calling costs you at least 11k and maybe more with very little chance of winning.