The whole M & Q thing.

jojobinks · #21 (**permalink**) 10-12-2006, 07:36 PM

i think you're right, yeltzen, when you mention that your evidence is really anecdotal. i found that as soon as i read hoh2, i started KILLING in the stages of mtt's where there were bunches of shortstacks b/c i was making way better decisions than a lot of others.

sure, pushing with A5 sucks when a9 calls, but folding into oblivion sucks worse (and gives you NO chance), and i'm not trying to be rude or poke fun here, B, but you've said yourself that you sneak into final tables with no chips way too often.

if you don't get into the CT FT with 7k in chips, you can usually just forget about it. and waiting for big hands isn't the way to do that.

jojobinks · #22 (**permalink**) 10-12-2006, 07:38 PM

q on the other hand...it's just pointless.

yeltzen · #23 (**permalink**) 10-12-2006, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jojobinks

sure, pushing with A5 sucks when a9 calls, but folding into oblivion sucks worse (and gives you NO chance), and i'm not trying to be rude or poke fun here, B, but you've said yourself that you sneak into final tables with no chips way too often.

Well that was a long while ago when I was still a mega-rock. The last few final tables I've made I've been in great shape. I'm not really even talking about pushing with hands like A5. If I have a crappy M, I'm pushing with that. I'm talking about a few examples in the book where he has you pushing with like T7o and 63o in LP. I know the theory is that everyone folding to you is a situation you have to take advantage of, but with 5 or 6 hands before you get smacked with the blind, I'd rather take my chances on getting something at least halfway decent to push with. If that means I'm playing non-optimal, well, I'll learn after I lose enough tournies, I guess.

smoore · #24 (**permalink**) 10-13-2006, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yeltzen

I'm talking about a few examples in the book where he has you pushing with like T7o and 63o in LP.

Oh, NOW I remember this part of the book. That's the "push with any two" move. It only works if your opponents respect your range. It works for me when I'm "takes a sledgehammer to pound a needle in HIS ass" tight. It doesn't when my image is not that tight.

yeltzen · #25 (**permalink**) 10-26-2006, 04:52 PM

So I've been skimming through HOH2 while I'm bored at work, and here are a few examples of the plays I think are kind of questionable.

Hand 9-11 (pg. 18

You have Q6o in the big blind. You have $8200, blinds are $600/1200 with a $75 ante. Starting pot is $2550 so you have an M of about 3.XX.

A player in MP min-raises and the SB calls. Dan recommends calling. I can't really justify putting almost 1/3 of my stack (blind + raise = 2400) in with a junk hand like that. That's just me though.

Hand 9-5 (pg. 179)
You have 87o in the cutoff. You have $5700 in chips. Blinds are $1000/2000 with a $100 ante. Starting pot is $4,000 so your M is like 1.5.

Everyone folds to you and Dan recommends going all in. I would probably fold. I know the theory is that you have a great situation with everyone folding, but you also have 6 hands before the blind to get a better hand... like, a hand with a card over 8.

Discuss.

TheMightyJim2k · #26 (**permalink**) 10-26-2006, 05:21 PM

I definitely agree that I don't call with the first hand. I could be playing this wrong as I don't play many tourney's....I'd like to hear what Jojo has to say about that one.

The second hand I don't have a problem with. I don't have the book in front of me, but if the blinds are similar stacks to you they can't call unless they have a pretty good hand, and many times they will fold thinking that they have another 7-8 hands to pick up something and push themselves instead of calling an all-in. If they do call the vast majority of the time you won't be worse than a 60-40 dog (they have unpaired overs). If they call with A-little or a pkt pair (55 or less) then you are a coin flip. I would say the fold equity combined with the chance you luck out and win the pot is enough to make a move here.

mrticsay · #27 (**permalink**) 10-26-2006, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yeltzen

Hand 9-11 (pg. 18
You have Q6o in the big blind. You have $8200, blinds are $600/1200 with a $75 ante. Starting pot is $2550 so you have an M of about 3.XX. A player in MP min-raises and the SB calls. Dan recommends calling. I can't really justify putting almost 1/3 of my stack (blind + raise = 2400) in with a junk hand like that. That's just me though.

I think the logic is- you are getting 5:1 on your money and can’t get reraised (you cap the betting). Besides great odds at this time, you aren’t going to get many more chances like that. You still have enough chips to steal the blinds that are about to go by you, you’ll be in late position, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yeltzen

Hand 9-5 (pg. 179)
You have 87o in the cutoff. You have $5700 in chips. Blinds are $1000/2000 with a $100 ante. Starting pot is $4,000 so your M is like 1.5. Everyone folds to you and Dan recommends going all in. I would probably fold. I know the theory is that you have a great situation with everyone folding, but you also have 6 hands before the blind to get a better hand... like, a hand with a card over 8.

A problem with waiting is- What if someone else gets a hand before you? They open with a raise- what do you do? Or, you get a hand, but with more hands behind you, there are more chances that someone has made a hand. The next hand you play, you are AI anyways. If you push here and noone has a hand, you take down the pot. If you are called, its unlikely that you are dominated (you have live cards an a great straight possibility…too bad their not suited). Take a chance here.

To all this I would add consideration for the styles of the other players, their position, their stack sizes, etc. But, I think that’s the basics of his thinking.

jojobinks · #28 (**permalink**) 10-27-2006, 04:15 PM

hand #1 i fold, but your pot odds are tremendous and many would call there.
hand #2 you're just plain wrong...80% of the time you pick up the pot uncontested. the other 20% of the time you're 30% or so to double up. folding there is weak weak weak.

TheMightyJim2k · #29 (**permalink**) 10-27-2006, 04:40 PM

hmmm my thoughts were in-line with Jojo's on a NL tourney matter....maybe I should quit the llhe route and switch over to NL tournies.

j/k the 2/4 limit game at FT while not as good as Party was, is too juicy to pass up. I guess my 15 minutes of WPT fame will have to wait....sigh....