[bolgenmod]

Someone sent me some anon rep about this thread with the comment "I think you need to slow down." Now I don't give a damn about rep (it's nice to have, but whatever), but I do wonder about the comment. Maybe we are going pretty fast, BUT:

I have said it before, and it bears repeating: TAP is not an easy book, nor is it a book for beginners. And when I posted my OP, I was just trying to think of the thing I LEAST understood in the part we are covering, mostly because I didn't want to start this thread with a general "anyone have questions?" It was just a random question, not a mandate for discussion (or even a good model question).

Here's the thing:

EVERYONE should feel free to ask about whatever they don't understand. That is the WHOLE POINT of this book discussion.

If the discussion is going too fast, please post and ask for people to explain/slow down. I don't care about the neg rep, but it doesn't really help the discussion get better if you just send me rep: if I hadn't have been checking my user cp to find a thread, I might not have seen your comment for days.

If you are shy about posting a question, please pm me, and I will ask your question and never reveal your identity if you wish. The whole idea of this was to pick the brains of those like jojo and yeltzen and dd (and many more!) who have more experience and expertise than I at NL. So fire away people!! Don't just lurk and wish someone will ask about something: ask your questions.

(And btw, I fixed my OP: Dan is right -- I DO NOT get up early....)

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by yeltzen

I would have bet $25 in practice. It's easy for me to say the pot was the best bet when I'm not there.

which is sort of the point. they make it here, then later in the concepts section (concept #1, in fact)...betting more is usually better.

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

which is sort of the point. they make it here, then later in the concepts section (concept #1, in fact)...betting more is usually better.

Eh? I was talking about me, personally. I can sit here and say $40 is a better bet than $25 when I'm not in the hand. When I'm actually in the hand, I'd bet $25 just like he did because I'd be afraid he'd fold.

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by bolgenmod

Someone sent me some anon rep about this thread with the comment "I think you need to slow down." Now I don't give a damn about rep (it's nice to have, but whatever), but I do wonder about the comment. Maybe we are going pretty fast, BUT:

I have said it before, and it bears repeating: TAP is not an easy book, nor is it a book for beginners. And when I posted my OP, I was just trying to think of the thing I LEAST understood in the part we are covering, mostly because I didn't want to start this thread with a general "anyone have questions?" It was just a random question, not a mandate for discussion (or even a good model question).

Here's the thing:

EVERYONE should feel free to ask about whatever they don't understand. That is the WHOLE POINT of this book discussion.

If the discussion is going too fast, please post and ask for people to explain/slow down. I don't care about the neg rep, but it doesn't really help the discussion get better if you just send me rep: if I hadn't have been checking my user cp to find a thread, I might not have seen your comment for days.

lmao... people are so goofy. We're moving too fast! There's been a total of 2 questions posed!!!

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by yeltzen

lmao... people are so goofy. We're moving too fast! There's been a total of 2 questions posed!!!

Whoa, whoa whoa! Slow down there. I hadn't even read Lisa's post yet, and you're already quoting it?!?

[mcc235]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

which is sort of the point. they make it here, then later in the concepts section (concept #1, in fact)...betting more is usually better.

I didn't quite understand this either. Are you saying a larger ~$75 bet is better in the example I gave or do you agree with yeltzen on a $25 to $40 pot size bet?

[scottwire]

For the "betting the nuts on the river" hand:

I think you have to drop some of those percentages

I would go more with-

$25 x 40% = 10

$40 x 20% = 8

$75 x 5% = 3.75

The problem in the book presents a hand where I think the board was something like 98652 where one player has T7 and a player has bet in front of them. Since your opponent has bet, you can assume they have the 7. Now it is just a matter of extracting the most you possibly can.

The problem with the KQ hand is that your opponent checked the turn and announced that he doesn't have a strong hand. Even if he has a Q, he still has to be very worried about the case K.

In the book problem, the raise from the opponent generally means any 7x hand and many people auto call any raise because they see their straight and can't possibly believe that their opponent has the one card hand that beats them.

In the KQ case, I believe a smaller bet is in order if you both identify each other as decent players. If the player is a nut and is paranoid about getting bluffed out of pots, then the call values may go way up because he may identify a big bet as a bluff.

Your flop call practically announces you have a K or Q. You could possibly have a hand like AJ, JT, middle pair. So at this point your opponent is only beating you a small percentage of the time as is and really has no business calling any bets unless he has a Q or you've shown some bluffs lately.

my 2 cents

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by scottwire

In the book problem, the raise from the opponent generally means any 7x hand and many people auto call any raise because they see their straight and can't possibly believe that their opponent has the one card hand that beats them.

In the KQ case, I believe a smaller bet is in order if you both identify each other as decent players. If the player is a nut and is paranoid about getting bluffed out of pots, then the call values may go way up because he may identify a big bet as a bluff.

Your flop call practically announces you have a K or Q. You could possibly have a hand like AJ, JT, middle pair. So at this point your opponent is only beating you a small percentage of the time as is and really has no business calling any bets unless he has a Q or you've shown some bluffs lately.

my 2 cents

You have to remember he's playing in a $1/2 game. A B&M $1/2 game. I don't think any credit should be given to anyone being a decent player unless there's some kind of evidence. Ha!

[littlebu]

Originally Posted by mcc235

Should I have played this hand differently (nuts before the river):

Atlantic City $1/2 No Limit table. Everyone is mostly tight/passive. I have approximately $200 and most players have between $125 and $250. It is a casual Friday night, most people are more interested in the beer than aggressive poker.

There is a small raise to $6 from early position, I call in middle position with



the button calls (stack of $200 as well), everyone else folds. Pot: $21

Flop:



EP checks, I check (being tricky noob that I am), button bets $10. EP folds, I take a while and using my best eighth grade acting skills ask the Button "you gotta king?". I finally call. Pot: $41

Turn:



I check, button checks

River:



Using my old way of thinking before reading NLHETAP, I thought "I don't want to scare him off" so I bet $25. He thinks for a long while, says something aloud like "do you just have an ace?" and finally calls with pocket fours.

Now that I have read this section, I have been rethinking this hand. What hands could I have put him on? What P(call) could I assign to a bet of $25 vs $75 vs $150? What if the button were a much looser player, how does that change the answers?

< edit >fix pot sizes < /edit >

Here's how I play this hand. I would have bet out on the pot $10. Remember you have to give them a chance to make a mistake. If I'm the button and you check/call I'm essentially done with the hand if I have no part of it which he almost certainly doesn't. So I like to lead for half a pot $10, hope the button thinks I'm just taking a stab and fires back, or maybe EP gets fiesty and "tricky" and check raises the scary board. On the turn there's a couple of ways I'd play it depending on what happend on the flop. If I was raised by the button I would check and hope he thought I was weak on the flop essentially saying "I took my shot and now I'm done bet and it's yours". If the button just called then I would lead out again hoping he had something like A9 that now looks pretty to him because "he can't possibly have the K, what a bad beat that would be my full house to 4 of a kind, what are the odds". If he has nothing or doesn't think your bluffing than your probably not going to get much more out of him. The main point of my jumbled, incoherent post is your goal is to build a big pot when you have hands like these. The more you get in there early the easier it is to get the rest in on later streets because he has more invested already. Don't let them get off easy by giving him a chance to check it through or make a small bet and giving away your hand. It could work out you bet and they both fold the flop, thems the breaks, but you have to try and build the pot.

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by littlebu

Here's how I play this hand. I would have bet out on the pot $10. Remember you have to give them a chance to make a mistake. If I'm the button and you check/call I'm essentially done with the hand if I have no part of it which he almost certainly doesn't. So I like to lead for half a pot $10, hope the button thinks I'm just taking a stab and fires back, or maybe EP gets fiesty and "tricky" and check raises the scary board. On the turn there's a couple of ways I'd play it depending on what happend on the flop. If I was raised by the button I would check and hope he thought I was weak on the flop essentially saying "I took my shot and now I'm done bet and it's yours". If the button just called then I would lead out again hoping he had something like A9 that now looks pretty to him because "he can't possibly have the K, what a bad beat that would be my full house to 4 of a kind, what are the odds". If he has nothing or doesn't think your bluffing than your probably not going to get much more out of him. The main point of my jumbled, incoherent post is your goal is to build a big pot when you have hands like these. The more you get in there early the easier it is to get the rest in on later streets because he has more invested already. Don't let them get off easy by giving him a chance to check it through or make a small bet and giving away your hand. It could work out you bet and they both fold the flop, thems the breaks, but you have to try and build the pot.

When you have the deck stripped, I think you have to let someone bluff at it. If you flop a set on a board of A 9 3 rainbow (like a set of 3s or 9s), that's one thing. You can bet at that because someone might have hit an ace or whatever, but when you have the stone cold nuts, and there's hardly anything left that anyone could have to stay in the hand, you have to let them take the lead.

This is the problem with theory books like this. The theory is good an all, but sometimes the situation or the players in the hand matter more than the theory. In this hand, the situation matters more. You have a big hand, yes... and theory says you want a big pot for a big hand... but, unfortunately, you have the ONLY hand.