[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by hachkc

Yep, but no discussion of postion, bet sizes, stack sizes, etc.

He raised from the button.
No discussion of stack or bet sizes, but I'm assuming they're pretty significant or he wouldn't have mentioned it... like the standard buy-in size (50 BBs)?

[hachkc]

My bad, I missed that part.

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by hachkc

My bad, I missed that part.

UNACCEPTABLE!!! *BANHAMMER*

[hachkc]

Originally Posted by yeltzen

UNACCEPTABLE!!! *BANHAMMER*

Just for that, I gave you a +4 rep.

[mcc235]

Originally Posted by ddollevoet

I will say this however. After you get a couple hundred thousand hands under your belt, you'll be surprised at how accurately you begin to identify your opponent's holdings.

For those of us that have not yet passed the couple hundred thousand hand threshold yet (or even the thousand hand threshold for that matter) what is the best way to start observing your opponents. The last live B&M game I played I tried to watch every player, and it was just too much for a noob like me. I think next time I will just watch the two players on my immediate right (since caro says you make most of your money from them) to start with, then add more players as I feel comfortable. Does this make sense, or is there a better way?

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by yeltzen

He raised from the button.
No discussion of stack or bet sizes, but I'm assuming they're pretty significant or he wouldn't have mentioned it... like the standard buy-in size (50 BBs)?

i made it up. we're talking about pot size, and tptk seems to me the classic nlhe moderately strengthed hand with which you are most likely to get sucked out. s&m recommend (and i'm down) often betting the flop, giving the free card on the turn (to control the pot size), and check calling the bluff (or value-betting) on the river against an aggressive opponent. (they don't prescribe this: this is what i think they essentially recommend often, having absorbed the book).

you'll win a little less when you win and you'll lose A LOT less when you lose, especially for tournament players (read: me) that have a difficult time laying down this hand.

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by mcc235

For those of us that have not yet passed the couple hundred thousand hand threshold yet (or even the thousand hand threshold for that matter) what is the best way to start observing your opponents. The last live B&M game I played I tried to watch every player, and it was just too much for a noob like me. I think next time I will just watch the two players on my immediate right (since caro says you make most of your money from them) to start with, then add more players as I feel comfortable. Does this make sense, or is there a better way?

to your left is more important, imo, b/c your bets have to go through them. if i were to believe caro, though, i'd do two to the right and two to the left.

[snuix114]

Originally Posted by mcc235

For those of us that have not yet passed the couple hundred thousand hand threshold yet (or even the thousand hand threshold for that matter) what is the best way to start observing your opponents. The last live B&M game I played I tried to watch every player, and it was just too much for a noob like me. I think next time I will just watch the two players on my immediate right (since caro says you make most of your money from them) to start with, then add more players as I feel comfortable. Does this make sense, or is there a better way?

The best thing to do, in my opinion, is to stay involved with the action by trying to guess each players' hole cards during the hand, even if you've already folded. As each hand plays out you will get more information from each player based on how he/she plays each street. By the river you should have a pretty acurate guess. As you practice this you will find yourself guessing correctly on earlier streets more often.

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by mcc235

For those of us that have not yet passed the couple hundred thousand hand threshold yet (or even the thousand hand threshold for that matter) what is the best way to start observing your opponents. The last live B&M game I played I tried to watch every player, and it was just too much for a noob like me. I think next time I will just watch the two players on my immediate right (since caro says you make most of your money from them) to start with, then add more players as I feel comfortable. Does this make sense, or is there a better way?

That's a good way to start... just observing the players immediately left and right of you. Usually, the way I'll try to pick up information about players is to not get too intense about watching a hand until something out of line happens - a player makes a really small/large bet or raise, a player plays passively until the river and then makes a huge bet, a player plays passively until a scare card falls, a player shows down a much stronger/weaker hand that I thought they maybe had, etc. Then I see how it's reacted to and hope for a showdown. The showdown isn't as important as the bet and reaction.

[littlebu]

Originally Posted by mcc235

For those of us that have not yet passed the couple hundred thousand hand threshold yet (or even the thousand hand threshold for that matter) what is the best way to start observing your opponents. The last live B&M game I played I tried to watch every player, and it was just too much for a noob like me. I think next time I will just watch the two players on my immediate right (since caro says you make most of your money from them) to start with, then add more players as I feel comfortable. Does this make sense, or is there a better way?

I know your talking about live play, but when I first started playing online I would keep a pad of paper next to me and by watching the betting patterns of the people still in the hand I would write down a range based on their actions. The ranges get smaller the more you practice.

Originally Posted by jojobinks

i made it up. we're talking about pot size, and tptk seems to me the classic nlhe moderately strengthed hand with which you are most likely to get sucked out. s&m recommend (and i'm down) often betting the flop, giving the free card on the turn (to control the pot size), and check calling the bluff (or value-betting) on the river against an aggressive opponent. (they don't prescribe this: this is what i think they essentially recommend often, having absorbed the book).

you'll win a little less when you win and you'll lose A LOT less when you lose, especially for tournament players (read: me) that have a difficult time laying down this hand.

I mad the switch from mainly NL sng's to mainly NL cash games about two weeks ago. One situation I find myself in a lot is playing a TPTK type of hand overaggressively. It's really a difficult adjustment to make, and I find myself spewing with it.