[johndsoares]

so again what site do you guys think is the best ?
I have gotten alot of good info but still not sure!
thanks for everything though!
I am thinking pokerstars.... that way I can kick all your butts in the chiptalk game! BRING IT!

[jackblack73]

Originally Posted by BZLuck

Strategy point taken, but my experience was that a decent raise before the flop on these small money games usually ends up with you taking down the blinds of 35-65¢ in most cases. There is so much folding that you feel like you are in an origami classroom. :P

From previous hands I noticed if you put a $2 raise into a .10/.50 pot pre-flop and you are suddenly alone and the next hand is being dealt.

Anyway, call me all what you will, I have no proof, but just saw some really strange hands that I would be lucky to see in 2 nights of multi table tournament play, happen in an hour at one 6 person table.

Personally, it made up my mind, but to each his own.

I don't think they are "rigged" persay, but something felt fishy enough to me to leave on-line gambling forever after only two play sessions. I equate it as I did before more to being "loose" where card combos come up more often than the odds would dictate. And if anyone thinks this is impossible (I did not say provable!) then have at me.

Thank god I'm in Southern California and we can have live money table gaming at the Indian Casinos with about a 20 minute drive, 24 hours a day.

Make up your own minds, I'm forever finished with putting my money up against a computer.

You can't judge anything in 1 hour of play. You just can't. Play another 10 hours and see if you feel the same way. Recently I sat down at the MGM and got AQ or better like 8 out of my first 10 hands. Other players thought I was a maniac because I was raising almost every hand. Of course it's not rigged at the MGM, but these things happen. That's poker.

[VARoadstter]

BZ,

If you think it's rigged then I think you are smart to not play.

That being said, it's not rigged.

Bad beats, suckouts, etc. happen. To everyone. All the time.

Just something to think about - pocket aces are only an 87-13 favorite over 72o preflop. I'm certainly going to take those odds but I will accept that I will lose with the hand at times. It'll make me mad, sure, but I won't accuse the site of cheating me.

[JM]

I imagine we can all relate to how he's feeling. It certainly seems like something funny is going on after that session. I have read similar tales for many other poker rooms, and they also thought the randomizer was cooking the hands to raise the rake.

Here's something that happened to me in 2 one hour sessions at bodog poker about 4 hours apart. First was a single table tourney (10 seats), got dealt pocket aces 5 times! Won 4 out of 5 times with them and won the tourney. Later, played a multitable tourney and when it was getting close to the money, I was doing ok. Then I started getting complete crap hands, one after another. Nothing higher than a 9, not suited nor connecting (I consider connecting to be consecutive). At one point, got dealt 83o at least 3 times in a row, I think it was 4x. Didn't have enough chips to intimidate anyone, just an average stack. Basically got blinded out of the game after dozens of unplayable hands. I decided the same as you, this place is not for me and I left never to return.

There's plenty of other places to play out there, so if PS doesn't seem fair to you, try a different one.

[SpeakEasy]

Originally Posted by VARoadstter

BZ,

If you think it's rigged then I think you are smart to not play.

That being said, it's not rigged.

Bad beats, suckouts, etc. happen. To everyone. All the time.

Hear, hear.

If you play within your bankroll, the bad beats become just part of the game. Never sit down with more than 10% of your total bankroll in play at any one time to provide this cushion.

If you are a solid player, you will win in the long run, while suffering your fair share of the "it just can't be random" back-to-back-to-back bad-beat horror stories. I speak from experience.

And remember -- Texas Hold 'Em is a seven card game. Lots of people seem to think its a two card game...

[BZLuck]

Originally Posted by SpeakEasy

Hear, hear.

If you play within your bankroll, the bad beats become just part of the game. Never sit down with more than 10% of your total bankroll in play at any one time to provide this cushion.

If you are a solid player, you will win in the long run, while suffering your fair share of the "it just can't be random" back-to-back-to-back bad-beat horror stories. I speak from experience.

And remember -- Texas Hold 'Em is a seven card game. Lots of people seem to think its a two card game...

I didn't expect my AA to win, I actually lose on it more often then not, because it IS a hard hand to lay down, unless you watch the board and the betting closely. I've mucked my share of AA when the board does not improve your hand, and someone else seems to be pushing enough to make you concerned.

However, with AA when the flop comes a rainbow AKQ, you figure the odds are even MORE in your favor, and that really at that point the ONLY two cards that can beat you would be a J 10, and there is only one other live hand, pre-flop.

It just makes you think differently when the ONLY other hand in play is exactly the one needed in play.

I don't think there are "cheating robots" (i.e. fake players) that come up with the exact hand needed to beat you with, but as I said before, if casinos can adjust a "random" item like slot machine wheels to pay out winnings more often or not, why wouldn't a card playing site want to have more "live hands" dealth and more people betting so they get a larger part of the winnings?

Some of you say so emphatically that there IS NOTHING GOING ON.

OK, I don't have proof, just a feeling and I'll never play on-line again, and that is my choice. What is your proof to the contrary? How do you know for SURE that there isn't something going on? Did you code the gaming program? Know the owners? Trust Chris Moneymakers TV testimonies about being alone in a hotel room with nothing to do?

Honestly it only makes good business sense to me for them to do this, and is totally (much like a slot machine) undetectable, unless you play and chart 1,000,000 hands (or spins) and log them for comparison or patterns. And if you can afford to do that, I can't imagine you would even bother with some petty on-line poker house to begin with.

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers, I was just sharing a story and an opinion with someone that was interested in starting an on-line gambling account, and didn't want them to blindly accept that everything is 100% guaranteed to be kosher, because someone else said so. Approach with caution, as you should with ANYTHING that involved your hard earned money, oui?

I'm just giving my opinion from my perpective of trying something new, to someone in the same shoes that I was in just a few short days ago.

You would think that I was the first person ever to think this way with some of the reactions that I've gotten.

Oh, and its NOT about the $50 that was lost, without sounding arrogant, I do just fine.

[jackblack73]

So let's say the online casinos do manipulate the cards for more action. Even if they do, it's not generally argued that the manipulation is anything but random. In other words it doesn't favor particular players. So, although variance might be higher than a live game, the better players should still come out on top.

[BZLuck]

Originally Posted by jackblack73

So let's say the online casinos do manipulate the cards for more action. Even if they do, it's not generally argued that the manipulation is anything but random. In other words it doesn't favor particular players. So, although variance might be higher than a live game, the better players should still come out on top.

I'll agree to that statement.

Well said.

However calculating the odds of card combinations in accordance to possible hands (yours and other players) is part of the game. And if those odds are altered in any way, it takes a huge part of the game strategy away and makes it unusable. It would equate to someone raising, but you not knowing to what amount, until you commited to call or not.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by BZLuck

You would think that I was the first person ever to think this way with some of the reactions that I've gotten.

On the contrary. This "idea" has been brought up hundreds of times over the past few years. Never with good merit.

If you've never seen AA vs JT on an AKQ board, you haven't played enough poker. I've had AA vs KK an amazing number of times over the past few months alone (on both sides of the cards). These hands stand out in your memory. It doesn't mean these online sites are out to get you.

You haven't ruffled feathers. It's just been heard before. Again and again. But no one ever really has anything real to say.

[tomb1]

Originally Posted by SpeakEasy

And remember -- Texas Hold 'Em is a seven card game. Lots of people seem to think its a two card game...

How true, how true.

I hear most people who question online sites complaining because:
(1) they got rivered and lost (and don't remember the times they won on the river), and
(2) they see unusual repetitions or streaks of particular hole cards.
BZLuck was talking about both.

As for #1, well it's that "seven card game" problem. No starting hand is guaranteed to win, and there is at least as much of this complaint in live games. When somebody "doesn't play the way they're supposed to" and you lose, it's easy to blame it on them or blame it on the cards.

As far as #2, we all sometimes forget that the cards are random (if there's an honest shufffle). My chance of getting A-A is EXACTLY the same as my chance of getting dealt 2-2. (OK math wizards, I know if you ignore suits there are slightly better chances to get non-pairs, but I'm ignoring that for this discussion.)

And since each hand starts with a new deck, there is no such thing as a streak of starting hands. If I get A-A in one hand, then my chance of getting A-A in the next hand is EXACTLY the same as it was before. They're independent probabilities.

If you think online games are rigged, then you've made the correct choice to avoid them. But anecdotal evidence of a few (or a few hundred) memorable hands is not evidence, just like someone saying it's NOT rigged isn't based on evidence.

Finally, there is just no comparison between poker and slots. None whatsoever.