[erdiesel]

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HAND #1
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Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 7 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker
CO: $16.45 (164.5 bb)
BTN: $1.25 (12.5 bb)
SB: $9.25 (92.5 bb)
Hero (BB): $11.20 (112 bb)
MP1: $2.55 (25.5 bb)
MP2: $2.35 (23.5 bb)
MP3: $13.40 (134 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is BB with J 7
5 folds, SB completes, Hero checks
Flop: ($0.20) 4 6 J (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.10, SB calls $0.10
Turn: ($0.40) 4 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.40, SB calls $0.40
River: ($1.20) 4 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.50, SB raises to $8.65 and is all-in, Hero calls $8.15
Results:[spoil] $18.50 pot ($0.90 rake)
SB showed 4 T (four of a kind, Fours) and won $17.60 ($8.35 net)
Hero mucked J 7 (a full house, Fours full of Jacks) and lost (-$9.25 net)

Now, I had a pretty tight but very aggressive image at the table, my pt stats were 22/20/8 and I had no specific read on the villain, he was relatively new to the table, but the few hands that he did play, he was a bit loose and not overly aggressive but as I said, nothing to really go on.

Question that I have is that in this situation, if I assume the villain could have any two cards since he was in the SB, then was my call on the river wrong? the probabilty of someone having quads is pretty small, so can I continue to make this call in the future and be profitable in the long run? Or should I have layed down the hand? Will 10NL players make these type of spectacular steal attemps on the river if he had air or do they pretty much bet the strength of their hand? and if so, i thought my full house was good.........and that he might have a smaller full house.

So.......did i F@#@ up this hand?

[StevenH72]

Firstly, when you ask for help, don't show results, as you will get very biased reponses.

I would say all you done wrong was to bet too small on the river, you bet half pot on flop, pot on turn, and less than half the pot on the river.

I think betting $1-$1.20 would be more beneficial in the long run.

[jojobinks]

fold the river. you beat air, tie a jack, and lose to weird slowplayed overpairs.

so...you beat air. whatever anyone else says later in this thread, at this level huge overbets will often mean the nuts.

[erdiesel]

Thanks guys.

Steven, you are right about the river bet, it was too small of a bet, i should have just checked or bet much bigger

jojo, as this hand was playing out and we got down to the river, and he check raised me all in, i felt i was beat, i guess since i just started playing 10NL, I had to see if he had the nuts. it was a pricey lesson (pricey in terms of the bb). I thought people were going to bet the strength of their hand at this level and since i had committed relatively little into the pot prior, i didn't think i should call, but curiousity got the better of me..............

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by erdiesel

Thanks guys.

Steven, you are right about the river bet, it was too small of a bet, i should have just checked or bet much bigger

jojo, as this hand was playing out and we got down to the river, and he check raised me all in, i felt i was beat, i guess since i just started playing 10NL, I had to see if he had the nuts. it was a pricey lesson (pricey in terms of the bb). I thought people were going to bet the strength of their hand at this level and since i had committed relatively little into the pot prior, i didn't think i should call, but curiousity got the better of me..............

a big bet on later streets is pretty good evidence, definitely the strongest piece of info in the hand.

cut out the curiosity now, or you'll find yourself typing that last sentence pretty often in the coming years

[littlebu]

Originally Posted by erdiesel

i had committed relatively little into the pot prior, i didn't think i should call, but curiousity got the better of me..............

See the problem . Easy fold on the river. Don't get pissed when you fold and the genius hit's the show cards and he has a J either. It will happen, but not very often. Just remember how they played it and make a note on the player for later.

[erdiesel]

Originally Posted by littlebu

See the problem . Easy fold on the river. Don't get pissed when you fold and the genius hit's the show cards and he has a J either. It will happen, but not very often. Just remember how they played it and make a note on the player for later.

Don't get me wrong and think that my call was PURELY to satisfy my curiosity. I thought over what hands he might have based on how he played the hand to that point:

1) overpair - unlikely, i thought with JJ+ he would have at least min raised pf, and even if he didn't i think he would have re-raised either on the flop or definitely the turn to see where he stood with 2 fours on the board

2) jx - maybe, and would explain him calling on the flop and turn and on the river we would split the pot

3) 6x - not likely but maybe but I had him beat

4) underpair - maybe, and would explain betting patterns somewhat i think

5) xx - (any random two cards) - likely and he was just making a play at the pot at the end when he sensed my weakness on the river

6) 4x - unlikely given 3 four's already on the board but he was in the SB......

So if you rationalize the above.............i had most every hand beat except 4x (i'm not counting overpairs, because i'm convinced he would have raised on either the flop or turn)

Now, if this was higher stakes poker say 1/2 or higher with more bluffing and such.........would you make the call?

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by erdiesel

So if you rationalize the above.............i had most every hand beat except 4x (i'm not counting overpairs, because i'm convinced he would have raised on either the flop or turn)

rationalize is right. you say...well i can beat almost anything here. but you're ignoring the facts on the ground. the most likely hands to make that huge bet are a jack for a tie, an overpair for a loss, and a 4 for a loss. in your post options 3-5 are rarely indicative of his holdings. the more you tell yourself this was a good call, the more you'll make the call. and the more you make the call the poorer you'll be.

[erdiesel]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

rationalize is right. you say...well i can beat almost anything here. but you're ignoring the facts on the ground. the most likely hands to make that huge bet are a jack for a tie, an overpair for a loss, and a 4 for a loss. in your post options 3-5 are rarely indicative of his holdings. the more you tell yourself this was a good call, the more you'll make the call. and the more you make the call the poorer you'll be.

i'm not saying it was a great call at all. i guess i need to accept the fact that i should have laid down the hand.......

Different question, is this an easy lay down at higher stakes as well? say even a 1/2 game in a b&m casino?

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by erdiesel

i'm not saying it was a great call at all. i guess i need to accept the fact that i should have laid down the hand.......

Different question, is this an easy lay down at higher stakes as well? say even a 1/2 game in a b&m casino?

even easier in b&m small stakes, where the aciton is very passive and predictable. obviously, higher stakes players are more likely to make a range of plays. i don't play higher stakes, though. ask TMJ or seitz or someone.