[PhilTheThrill14]

Fold it preflop. KQ facing an UTG+1 raise with 5 left to act - and early in the tourney.

[whataboutj]

Thanks for all the feedback............I was originally asking for comments about his re-raise then call of my push because of the debate that happened afterward. The villan was saying "Do the math" that he was ahead and I was saying he was wrong. Tomb1's first post about him beign a statistical dog was exactly what my point was about the villan's play.

All tht being said I am aware of where the issues were with my play but enjoy hearing everyone's thoughts so please keep it coming. I should have raised the flop bet - probably pushed all in to end it. Truth be told I was playing another SnG for more $ at the same time and my son decided to wake up right as the hand was unfolding (F'n Murphy's law) so needless to say I did not have 100% concentration on the $2 MTT during the hand.

Please do keep the comments flowing though - I always enjoy reading the many ways a hand would/can be played
J

As another side note - If the original intention was to get true hand advice i wouldn't have posted the full hand and would have walked it through street by street

[beekeeper]

From the feedback so far, I'm learning that I may overvalue KQ too much.

I would play KQ suited for a raise from early position (only because I wouldn't want to limp). KQo, I'm not sure. It would depend on how well I felt I could read the table (because it would be hard to drop if I connected on the flop).

On reflection, after reading these posts, maybe I've opened up my game too much.

[tomb1]

Originally Posted by tomb1

Flop -- you hit top pair with a vulnerable hand and board. End it now! Bet the pot and see what happens. He should fold, but if he makes a terrible call on a gutshot straight, at least you made the right play.

Originally Posted by Sneds

I disagree with this post. It's too easy to say raise when you know the villians holding. He leads out on the flop and if you're raising pot you've got a third of your stack in the middle with KQ, who calls >500 with less than KQ? Not many people IMO

I appreciate your disagreement without being disagreeable.

I assume you are talking about the flop and not the turn raise. And I'm talking about the hand as played at each step, not how it should have been played (like maybe fold pre-flop, probably the most profitable play).

I see someone who raised moderately pre-flop, then put out a medium-sized c-bet on the flop. (And I didn't consider what he actually had.) If I'm holding top pair-good kicker, I'm beat now by only a few hands. Since you did play KQ, what better flop do you want??? Here are the choices I see:

1. Calling puts money in the pot without gaining any information, and giving another card that will probably worsen our hand.

2. Folding at this point is pretty weak unless you are SURE he's trapping.

3. Raising is the best choice IMO. And raising enough to get solid information, like a pot-sized raise. Does he have a monster? LET'S FIND OUT RIGHT AWAY! So what could happen?
- He's most likely to fold, and we win right there. Take the money and run before your vulnerable hand gets beaten.
- He could re-raise all-in, in which case we have to decide if he's trapping or bluffing. Have to make that choice based on what we've seen of him before, but I'd likely fold, lick my wounds, and have most of my stack left.
- He could call. He could still be trapping, and his call puts up the red flag. Or he could be drawing -- in which case we have succeeded in making him make a really bad decision. That's the essence of profitable poker. After a call of a pot bet, we're real suspicious and probably don't lose any more money.

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by tomb1

I see someone who raised moderately pre-flop, then put out a medium-sized c-bet on the flop. (And I didn't consider what he actually had.) If I'm holding top pair-good kicker, I'm beat now by only a few hands. Since you did play KQ, what better flop do you want??? Here are the choices I see:

1. Calling puts money in the pot without gaining any information, and giving another card that will probably worsen our hand.

2. Folding at this point is pretty weak unless you are SURE he's trapping.

3. Raising is the best choice IMO. And raising enough to get solid information, like a pot-sized raise. Does he have a monster? LET'S FIND OUT RIGHT AWAY! So what could happen?
- He's most likely to fold, and we win right there. Take the money and run before your vulnerable hand gets beaten.
- He could re-raise all-in, in which case we have to decide if he's trapping or bluffing. Have to make that choice based on what we've seen of him before, but I'd likely fold, lick my wounds, and have most of my stack left.
- He could call. He could still be trapping, and his call puts up the red flag. Or he could be drawing -- in which case we have succeeded in making him make a really bad decision. That's the essence of profitable poker. After a call of a pot bet, we're real suspicious and probably don't lose any more money.

if he's tight preflop, and we don't know that, but it's a good assumption if he's unknown...then we're beaten by the following likely hands: AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AQ. not only are we behind to those hands, but we're simply not gonna be catching up. that makes a raise there horrible, imo.

raising the pot on the flop puts in 90 preflop plus the raise on the flop (400-ish).

it'll get you information all right...but that's rarely a good reason to raise with such a small stack. other ways to get information: see a turn card...see whether he checks or bets the turn. otherwise we've just put in close to half our stack with a hand that we don't know what to do with on most turn cards.

bobby hoff (from the HOC interview): i love when people bet to see where there at. i'll tell you where you're at, you're in a lot of trouble!

if you are ahead, you're really not afraid of a lot of cards. what're you afraid of, KT or T9? so i like the check call on the flop. all this said, i think it's an easy fold preflop. it's a crap hand and it's best not to get involved with EP raisers with crap hands.

[whataboutj]

The thing to keep in mind during all of the excellent hand analysis is this is a $2 MTT DONKAMENT EXTRODINARE

What we believe is solid play is rarely the case early in these games. In fact as I stated earlier the argument given for the play was so off it was a joke.

I aint sayin nutin I'm just sayin

Ok back to the hand analysis ----

[byline9]

Originally Posted by whataboutj

The thing to keep in mind during all of the excellent hand analysis is this is a $2 MTT DONKAMENT EXTRODINARE

What we believe is solid play is rarely the case early in these games. In fact as I stated earlier the argument given for the play was so off it was a joke.

I aint sayin nutin I'm just sayin

Ok back to the hand analysis ----

I think you hit the nail on the head, J...the odds are against him, sure -- but it's early in a $2 donkament, and if he hits his draw he can win a big pot. We've all seen it played this way, too many times.

[littlebu]

Originally Posted by PhilTheThrill14

Fold it preflop. KQ facing an UTG+1 raise with 5 left to act - and early in the tourney.

+1
and QFT since +1 is to short

[Harlequin011]

Originally Posted by whataboutj

MP1 - t3065
HERO - t1415
MP3 - t1210
MP4 - t1205
Button - t1610
SB - t1565
BB - t1460
UTG - t2705
UTG+1 - t2235

PREFLOP Level II (15/30)
HERO is MP2 with K Q
1 fold,

UTG+1 raises t60 to t90, <---- Raise with a weak hand OOP, happens a ton.

1 fold,

HERO calls t90, <---- Raise or Fold here. 80% fold for me here.

5 folds.

FLOP t225 (2 players)
5 Q J
UTG+1 bets t120, <--- Cbet

HERO calls t120. <----Raise here, maybe fold. 90% raise here

TURN t465 (2 players)
5 Q J 7
UTG+1 bets t150, <--- Trying to buy the pot w/ a weak bet and a semi-bluff.

HERO raises t300 to t450, <----- Nice pickoff but the move is to push here. If we think we're ahead. It's time to shove.

UTG+1 raises t660 to t1110, <----- Another re-steal attempt.

HERO raises t95 to t1205, UTG+1 calls t95. <----- same play

RIVER t3475 (2 players)
5 Q J 7 A

SHOW DOWN
UTG+1 shows A T
HERO shows K Q
UTG+1 collected t2875 from pot

Final Pot: t2875

Overall I don't think it's terrible. If you're going to play the hand I can see both sides. Although, I wouldn't play the villan's hand after your raise. 12 outer is a little lean. I also think I'm folding after he re-raises me on the turn.

[luckychick]

How many player in this MTT? Honestly, I don't think it's that crazy.

He made a standard c-bet on the flop, which you called. I may have raised the flop, but a call is good too... KQ is tough.

He double barrels on the turn... a little bit daring/questionable, but for a low-buy-in MTT this works sometimes, and he might be best... lots of people call the flop and fold the turn with small pp and naked Aces. The problem is your min-raise on the turn is awful. Call, or raise more (shove).

As Tom pointed out, he has a little over 2:1 odds wise. If you min-raise, he is getting 6:1 and it's (at least) a call (the pot is 915 when you min-raise, and it's 150 more to him). If you shove, he has to call 1055 into a 1820 pot, and it's a fold (math-wise). You have to be sure that you have the best hand here with KQ, which is quite possible but not certain, he did bet the turn. I prefer calling here and re-evaluating river. The river is hard though, because there are a lot of hands that kill you. (Note - getting 6:1 on the minraise, there's a lot of weaker hands that still get odds to draw.)

As far as his over shove on your min-raise..
The pot is 915, he's betting 745 (660, but effectively 745 b/c the last 95 is going in if you call) to potentially win 915+745=1660. He also has some FE as well, and since he has you covered, it knocks you out and not him. If he loses, he has a workable stack of 800.