[JCTC]

Except for the weekly chiptalk tournament, I don't play poker on line. But I've been hearing from those who do that there are services that collect data on players that, with enough data, can produce statistics that show how a player can be expected to play, even if you have never played against them. To me it appears online poker is different from B&M poker, in that it apparently doesn't take personal experience or a human element to gather and record statistics on a poker player online. B&M poker rooms to not have a service to watch and record the playing of people and sell it to other players. That kind of playing seems hollow to me. Sort of like having a player piano if you want to be considered a good piano player. Are you really a good poker player if you rely on this type of assistance? Is it ethical for the sites to collect this data and sell it?

It seems like a milder form of cheating and I think it is unethical for the sites to sell data for these services. However, I'm interested in what others think.

[Big Mike]

Having this type of assistance is useless to people who are not already good poker players. Knowing this info will not turn you from a losing player into a winning one, it is as simple as that.

I don't know exactly what services or site you are talking about that sells info directly - I expect that most poker sites do consider that cheating, and I suppose it sort of is. Sites like Sharkscope sell the results of peoples tournaments, but you can block yourself from searches if you care enough to.
Data mining can be done on your own computer using Poker Tracker or a similar product. I use PT when I play, though I don't actively datamine while I'm not playing, I just keep stats on people I actually play with.

I really don't consider this personal tracking using PT to be cheating at all, just part of the reality of online poker.

[JCTC]

I may not understand how this works, but don't services like Poker Tracker require data from the site? Doesn't the site have to allow that?

[scottwire]

It is not unethical to view statistics on a player and use it to your advantage.

In football, a team has a backlog of statistics on teams and players and watches weeks of old film of previous games between other teams to determine their best courses of action during the game.

In poker, we are using tendencies we see from statistics to determine our best course of action in a hand.

Unethical would be somehow finding out the hole cards your opponent has or colluding with another player. Just as it is unethical for a football team to steal signs, read lips or whatever else to get an edge.

I can get a general feeling of how a person plays after about 10 to 20 hands and usually they end up matching the stats I see. This is not always the case as sometimes extremely tight players may just get a great run of cards and raise 8 of his first 10 hands and I think he is a maniac when in reality the deck is hitting him in the face. Statistics can only go so far as I can play like a maniac for 20 hands and then only play top 10 hands for the next 200 or mix it up however I want. Statistics only add an enhanced perception for your reads but does not guarantee any kind of positive outcome.

As for the selling part, companies like sharkscope are spending money on servers and web sites to provide a service to those who want it. Personally if someone wants to see my stats I don't really care. All programs like pokertracker do are allow you to enhance your read on a given player during a hand. The stats can tell a story but it doesn't provide the ending to any given hand or tournament.

[jbones]

Not cheating.

You know how Gus Hansen plays, but have never played a hand of poker with him (I assume?)

[hachkc]

Definitely a grey area IMO.

First off, I have datamined poker tables that I'm not currently sitting at. I have never payed or used a 3rd party service (outside of PT/PokerTracker) for this though and probably wouldn't. FTP allows you to captured observed hands which can then be imported in PT; P* doesn't allow this and PP used to allow this but not anymore.

Why do I do it? Table selection as well as the obvious background it provides on a player. I'll go to FTP, open up 16 tables (the max). I then choose a couple to play on but I'll keep an eye out for those tables that look juicy (large pots, high # of pf players, lags, etc). PokerTracker and PokerAce (HUD) allow me to look at the table to identify the player types and such and whether it appears to be a good table to play it.

Is this right/ethical? Hard to say, its definitely different then live poker but I've figured out long ago that online poker and live poker are 2 very different beasts altogether. Same basic rules on how the game is played but very different playing surfaces. Given that online poker is a technology driven playing surface, it makes sense that you can use and rely on technology more while playing. Is it cheating if there are no rules governing it and everyone has the same level of access; I don't think so.

[hachkc]

Originally Posted by JCTC

I may not understand how this works, but don't services like Poker Tracker require data from the site? Doesn't the site have to allow that?

Pokertracker is not a service in the sense of sharkscope but simply a software product you run on your machine. Pokertracker simply loads HH files into a database. Depending on the site, these HH have to be hands that you were involved in (P*) or simply hands on a table you were observing (FTP). Now one can probably buy HH from a 3rd party and load them into their database. To the best of my knowledge, programs like this and their associated HUDs do not violate the ToS of any site. There are programs that are available that do violate the ToS of various sites which would definitely be considered cheating and folks have been warned/banned from sites for using them.

[MixMastaPJ]

If you played at a table, and your software (PokerTracker in most cases) gathered the information, I don't feel it is unethical. However, if you were NOT playing at the table, I do consider that unethical.

PokerTracker basically interprets data that you could be getting if you were meticulously taking notes. however, since most people are multi-tabling, this becomes impossible. If you were at a home game, do you consider unethical to use a players past plays to make a decision against them? of course not, but if you didn't play with them, I feel having statistics already is unfair.

[littlebu]

I'm in the not cheating camp. It's simply information that is available to everyone that wishes to use the service. I have never paid for PT database because I don't play for serious money or for a living. If I did I would most likely suscribe to that service because my competition most likely has. I have data mined individual tables on my own before joining them to see if it is a good table and to have an idea of how the people playing on the table play. Having the data and effectively using the data are two completely different things. All the stats on other players in the world won't instantly make someone go from a losing player to a winning player.

[AceDeuceNoUse]

I agree with the premise that having background info will not automatically make you a better player, but I also believe that having such information on a given player, who may have fallen into predictable playing patterns, gives the skilled opponent a distinct advantage towards putting that player on a given hand.

Is it "cheating"? Not in the technical sense, as you do not have a lock on what your opponent's next action will be, regardless of his past behavior. Is it unethical, or perhaps against the true spirit of the game? Depends upon your ethics. It is poker, after all. I think that the existence of such tools is the nature of the online beast. As such, their existence serves as a reminder to vary your play, lest you become subject to predictable patterns (displayed on your opponent's HUD).