[jojobinks]

ps: i realize that we need to define terms, that's there's a misunderstanding here of what data mining is.

1. running poker tracker on tables you're playing is NOT datamining. by default, you get Hand histories of hands you participate in. PT merely takes those hand histories and puts them into a format that is easier to glean information from.

2 datamining is something different. it's when you open tables that you are not playing and gather data from them to add to your database. you can do this for hours/days/weeks, and thus have information about potential opponents for later, when you happen to be at a table with them.

#1: not illegal, on ANY online poker site.
#2: as far as i know, only illegal at p*, with software modifications to make it so (on p* your computer doesn't receive copies of observed HH's).

in the thread so far, people are mostly arguing over #1, running poker tracker on tables you're playing. but the title of the thread explicitly refers to #2, datamining.

i don't know which the OP meant to discuss, but i just thought i'd point out this important difference.

[hachkc]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

ps: i realize that we need to define terms, that's there's a misunderstanding here of what data mining is.

1. running poker tracker on tables you're playing is NOT datamining. by default, you get Hand histories of hands you participate in. PT merely takes those hand histories and puts them into a format that is easier to glean information from.

I think most folks are fine with this one.

2 datamining is something different. it's when you open tables that you are not playing and gather data from them to add to your database. you can do this for hours/days/weeks, and thus have information about potential opponents for later, when you happen to be at a table with them.

I think this one is the issue most of us are debating. I'd say its broken up into 2 categories, 1) mining hands you are only observing (FTP option) and 2) purchasing or somehow acquiring information on players you have not played against before. The first is something you can do live as scott mentioned though I can't think of anyone capable of watching 16 tables like FTP will allow you to do. The second is definitely a grey area IMO though folks in live games do share information about other players whether its intentional or not.

[Sea Vulture]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

see, you lost me there. by it's very existance, online poker uses technology to alter/enhance the play.

if you think that's a stretch, fine. i'll offer you this. on stars you can click the tab to see what % of hands you've seen the flop with. when i click that i get information more exact and precise than i've ever had playing live about my own play. i use that information at times. if the # is high i sometimes tighten up. if it's very low...well that's just normal for me.

so you'd argue that by using one of the very basic features that p* offers that i'm cheating?

some of your other points are equally moot. in any games things that are declared illegal are illegal. so yes, technology offers you the opportunity to create multiple accounts. but P* calls that illegal, so it's illegal. likewise sharing information with another player in the game.

they haven't declared poker tracker illegal, so, simply, it's not. they have a policy on datamining, and have fixed their software to not allow it. simple.

see how it works? you can either call it illegal and work on catching people that break the rules, or call it illegal and fix the software to make it illegal. but those in charge of the game have that responsibility, not some random joe that thinks it violates the purity of the game. example: the check-raise is illegal in some home games. those that run those games declare it off-limits. stupid, but fine, they run the game.

if, however, i go to a game where the C/R is allowed and pitch a fit when i get c/r'ed, then i'm out of line, right? b/c as a player you don't get to make the rules...you merely decide if you're willing to play the game as laid out.

i remember this one time when i told the pit boss that i wouldn't play their roulette wheel unless they increased payouts or called it a push when 0 or 00 came up. yeah, they didn't really go for that.

You site some examples of "Features" within P*. I'm talking about using programs "outside" of the site you are playing on. Let's narrow it to that. The original question was discussing the use of outside data mining programs, NOT features of each online poker site.

A legitimate question was asked to gain a perspective, and I appreciate that. Trying to compare features within a game to outside programs or outside influence, is like comparing apples and oranges. Now, home game rules are being brought in as examples. Come on, here. That shouldn't even be an issue because we all know home "house rules" cover the spectrum.

At its root, I think the use of outside programs or services to gain information about the playing habits of others is unethical and wrong. I respect the viewpoints of others, understand where they are coming from, but respectfully disagree. Nothing more, nothing less, no harm, no foul. Eventually, it will sort itself out, one way or the other. We can agree to disagree.

[Big Mike]

Originally Posted by Sea Vulture

Looking at mucked cards is not allowed in B&M casino games.
.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but can't any called hand be asked to be seen in a casino as well? Basically just like online only if you do it live without suspecting collusion you are being a jerk.

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by Big Mike

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but can't any called hand be asked to be seen in a casino as well? Basically just like online only if you do it live without suspecting collusion you are being a jerk.

try doing it 15 hands in a row and see if you don't end up having a chat with the floor. although you can do it theoretically, you don't. there's no such issue with online play, obviously.

[TheMightyJim2k]

lets put it this way. I play with PT. I datamine. I use a HUD (displays opponents stats). I take copious notes. I look at all mucked hole cards. I will look up info on a player through google etc if I am playing in a tourney or HU. I do all of this stuff to gain an edge online.

Despite this live play is magnitudes easier than any online game I play in, and most "good" or "winning" live players play very very poorly compared to the online players I play with. So when I hear primarily live players complaining about datamining/ PT/ HUDs etc, or complaining that online play is so much different (can't get reads players are crazy etc) I wonder: Are they really struggling at online poker because the change of setting and additional information available to opponents OR is it that with online poker you can readily see your balance on the cashier tab every time you play thus it is much harder to ignore the fact that you aren't a winning player?

Most people that I know that play live somewhat frequently claim to be winning players, but I also know that a very small percentage of players online are actually winning. So something doesn't add up. It seems to me that live players should be looking to take advantage of tools like PT, HUDs, pokerstove, etc and trying to improve their own play online, and then see if it translates live (hint: it will).

[Sea Vulture]

It depends on what your "live" players consider live. Casino or Home games? In Home games, there isn't a rake. Online there is.

[TheMightyJim2k]

Originally Posted by Sea Vulture

It depends on what your "live" players consider live. Casino or Home games? In Home games, there isn't a rake. Online there is.

i'm talking about anyone playing with cards and chips. To elaborate, I can find 2/4 limit games online where as a professional who has played 200,000 hands in the last year I still would not be a significant favorite over the fairly tough players there.

But if I got sit in a live 20/40 game in a casino or home game or whatever, chances are I'm a significant favorite in that game if not the best player when I sit down.

the 1/2 NL live games I've played in play like .5/.10 games online.

most live players don't know how to play poker. So when they whine about unfair stuff on the internet I tend to assume that it probably has more to do with the fact that they are bad players, and less that those things are giving their opponents and unfair advantage. Most good live players who play online take advantage of those things, fwiw. And if you aren't you are seriously hurting your game.

[Poboy]

Originally Posted by Sea Vulture

Looking at mucked cards is not allowed in B&M casino games.

I know that, hence my point. Do you play online? Most sites have a 'last hand' option where anyone who showed down has their hand displayed. If you aren't looking at that, you probably aren't a winning player. It is one of many features that online provides that you don't have live. The Pre-select buttons are as well. These things show that online is not live. Holding one to the other's structure is not logical.








There does seem to be some confusion as to what the numbers are for data mining. It doesn't give you hand ranges or %age chance he's bluffing, or the %age of time you need to win to make a profitable call. Nothing like that. Datamining gives you observable stats at tables you aren't playing on. Depending on how you have it set up, it tells you how often a player's in pots, how aggr he is, how often he cbets, how often he goes to showdown, how often he wins. It is up to you to interpret them.