[Poboy]

Originally Posted by Sea Vulture

My position on this is that it IS cheating, or at least, unethical. I am a believer that if you can't use it while playing at a B&M Poker table, you shouldn't be able to use it while playing on line.

Do you look at mucked cards at showdown? Because you can't do that live. What about the pre-select action buttons? You can't do that live.

Originally Posted by jojobinks

i can't use a mouse at the b&m table.

What do you throw at the guy when you get runner runnered at the casino?

[Sea Vulture]

Originally Posted by hachkc

No offense but that's a pretty simplistic view of things. Technology causes things to evolve and change. Sometimes these are good and sometimes they are bad. Everyone has the same level of access whether they choose to use it or not is up to them.

No offense taken and yes, I have taken a rather simplistic view on this subject, but I think it's more a traditionalist view on how the game should be played. I understand techology and evolution, but that doesn't mean it's acceptable.

Setting up two user accounts is an available technological advantage. That would be considered cheating. Using a cell phone or IMing another player in the same online cash game talking about your cards is technologically available, and that would be considered cheating.

If you are keeping your own notes, or records, I would say it isn't cheating. Subscribing to a service that tracks the play of players whom a person has never played before, in my opinion, is cheating.

The question becomes how far do you let technology take over the game? There are computer programs that can play automatically for players while they aren't even there, based on programming criteria. It calculates odds, value, and other players tendancies. That would also be considered cheating.

Once technology is used to alter or enhance play, I feel it's cheating. It really takes away from the basic foundation and beauty of the game.

Like I said, I'm not beating any drum on this subject, it's only my view point and offered up only for discussion. I have looked at the programs and agree that most players don't even know what to do with the information, or how to use it to their advantage. Good players will adjust to another person's play. I just don't agree with the "if it's available, it's okay" mentality. To me, THAT is the more simplistic view on the subject and is an easy out for those that choose to use it.

[scottwire]

Originally Posted by Sea Vulture

My position on this is that it IS cheating, or at least, unethical. I am a believer that if you can't use it while playing at a B&M Poker table, you shouldn't be able to use it while playing on line.

You can bring pen and paper to the poker table at a casino and write down every detail you want. You can figure out each player's percentages for whatever statistical category you want. Datamining? Stand a table you want to play at for a few minutes and write down everything you see. The only difference is that online you are just automating the process.

[Sea Vulture]

Originally Posted by Poboy

Do you look at mucked cards at showdown? Because you can't do that live. What about the pre-select action buttons? You can't do that live.

Looking at mucked cards is not allowed in B&M casino games. Home games aren't even part of the discussion.

Pre-select buttons are part of the GAME program, not an outside service. You're really stretching it here. Jeez.

[Sea Vulture]

Originally Posted by scottwire

You can bring pen and paper to the poker table at a casino and write down every detail you want. You can figure out each player's percentages for whatever statistical category you want. Datamining? Stand a table you want to play at for a few minutes and write down everything you see. The only difference is that online you are just automating the process.

No, the difference is that YOU are doing it, entering the information for YOUR records, not relying on someone else to collect it for you at a table, or for players, you have never seen. That's a big difference.

[99%evil]

I have to agree with Sea Vulture... Watching someone play for one hour before you sit down...does not tell you all the info the datamining programs do, they tell you much more.

I guess I subscribe to the notion that with all this data collected and info churned by computer it is not the same game as live at a B&M casino. Not the same at all, should be called a completely different game. The rationale being used is like using a computer to decide moves for you while playing chess, it's running the numbers for you...you're not doing anything but doing as it tells you...same goes for the info you get with these programs and poker, you're playing what the data tells you... you're not playing poker.

[hachkc]

Live poker <> Online Poker

As I said earlier, sames rules but a different game. Expecting the two to be the same is just misleading yourself. Data mining versus physical tells? Is that a fair trade?

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by 99%evil

The rationale being used is like using a computer to decide moves for you while playing chess, it's running the numbers for you...you're not doing anything but doing as it tells you...same goes for the info you get with these programs and poker, you're playing what the data tells you... you're not playing poker.

you misunderstand what these programs do. you keep saying they make decisions for you...how exactly do they do that?

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by Sea Vulture

Once technology is used to alter or enhance play, I feel it's cheating. It really takes away from the basic foundation and beauty of the game.

see, you lost me there. by it's very existance, online poker uses technology to alter/enhance the play.

if you think that's a stretch, fine. i'll offer you this. on stars you can click the tab to see what % of hands you've seen the flop with. when i click that i get information more exact and precise than i've ever had playing live about my own play. i use that information at times. if the # is high i sometimes tighten up. if it's very low...well that's just normal for me.

so you'd argue that by using one of the very basic features that p* offers that i'm cheating?

some of your other points are equally moot. in any games things that are declared illegal are illegal. so yes, technology offers you the opportunity to create multiple accounts. but P* calls that illegal, so it's illegal. likewise sharing information with another player in the game.

they haven't declared poker tracker illegal, so, simply, it's not. they have a policy on datamining, and have fixed their software to not allow it. simple.

see how it works? you can either call it illegal and work on catching people that break the rules, or call it illegal and fix the software to make it illegal. but those in charge of the game have that responsibility, not some random joe that thinks it violates the purity of the game. example: the check-raise is illegal in some home games. those that run those games declare it off-limits. stupid, but fine, they run the game.

if, however, i go to a game where the C/R is allowed and pitch a fit when i get c/r'ed, then i'm out of line, right? b/c as a player you don't get to make the rules...you merely decide if you're willing to play the game as laid out.

i remember this one time when i told the pit boss that i wouldn't play their roulette wheel unless they increased payouts or called it a push when 0 or 00 came up. yeah, they didn't really go for that.

[scottwire]

Datamining programs do not tell you how to play

Please tell me what you think datamining programs do

All they do is tell you how often your opponents raise, call or fold. It does not tell you their hand or their next move. It does not tell you whether you should call, bet or fold. All it tells you is percentages.

Let's say you are asked to coach your favorite football team this weekend but you've been busy and you haven't watched a football game all year. Whoever your opponent is you are going to go look up every readily available stat from every game your opponent has played and find their strengths and weaknesses. You're going to watch film of your opponents even though you didn't get to see it in person.

If you play online poker you accept the fact that your hand histories are saved to hard drives and your mucked hands are displayed at showdown.

All these programs do are compile data. They do not tell you correct decisions because there is still imperfect information.

In chess, your next course of action is determined by running moves in your head however many number of future moves ahead to figure out your next move. A computer does the same thing only it can do an incredible amount of more computations than a human and thus gives an advantage. It is not basing it off of previous play. You have complete information because you can see every piece on the board.

In poker, you are using data to find patterns in past play but you can still never be sure what the best play is. Your opponent could have the nuts but because he is a maniac the stats may tell you he could have anything to call his all in with your overpair and you lose a big pot.

It seems like you guys think that datamining allows players to play on autopilot and just win continuously. It may help you win a little more or lose a little less but it isn't like anyone is cheating you out of money if they are using pokertracker and a HUD.

Stats only paint a picture, they can't make you win unless you knew what you were doing already anyway. It's still up to you to observe that the guy who raised 15 of his first 20 hands suddenly hasn't played his last 30. If you're not paying attention to that you may make a bad decision because you only see his overall stats.

Originally Posted by 99%evil

I have to agree with Sea Vulture... Watching someone play for one hour before you sit down...does not tell you all the info the datamining programs do, they tell you much more.

I guess I subscribe to the notion that with all this data collected and info churned by computer it is not the same game as live at a B&M casino. Not the same at all, should be called a completely different game. The rationale being used is like using a computer to decide moves for you while playing chess, it's running the numbers for you...you're not doing anything but doing as it tells you...same goes for the info you get with these programs and poker, you're playing what the data tells you... you're not playing poker.