[Nanook]

I have been playing poker casually for the past 20 years but have just recently taken a liking to hold-em. I know that I am not all that good at he and therefore have been reading some of the highly recommended books and playing exclusively the $5 + 50¢ SNG to try and learn. So far I have about 4000 hands under my belt and am starting to see some success.

I am beginning to be able to recognize the poor players that seem to dominate these games and would like to continue to play games with poor players. How high a level of "buy in" do I dare go before the players get considerably better? I would like to play for a little more so it means something, but at the same time I would like to continue to hone my skills on lesser players before I am ready for much better competition.

I guess that I wouldn't be suprised if it varied from site to site, so if others could throw out their opinion with where their experience has been that would be great.

Thanks,

AB

[gwilkx]

i play at pokerstars. my experience is that there is a slight jump in player skill at the $20 SNG level, and another at the $50 level. the $10 (1 or 2 table), the $10 5 table, and the $15 turbos are still full of weaker opponents.

though in some cases, i'm not really sure if they're weaker, or if they're just willing to gamble more with coinflip hands / big flush draws. it's not uncommon to see someone risk all their chips in level 2 on a flopped flush draw.

i find that the $30 SNG's have just about the right mix of weak players and more skilled. the biggest jump in skill seems to be at the $100 game. since SNG's are so short, it's sometimes hard to get a real read on someones skill level though, but when i say that the players are a little better i'm referring to more semi-bluffs, more check-raises, and more position plays. fewer calling stations, fewer guys who will put all their chips in with 1 pair on a board that's showing a flush draw and a straight draw - things like that.

if you're playing the $5's now on pokerstars, i wouldn't expect that you'll see much of a difference in play until you get to the $20 games.

all that said, i haven't played anything less than the $20's for a while, and the complexion of the players may have changed.

gw-

[SpeakEasy]

Agree with gw. Not much difference between the $5 and $10. Slightly better players at the $20 -- or rather, slighly fewer bad players. Although I'm not too fond of the term "donkey," it really is useful at times.

SNG Donkey Meter:

$5 or $10 SNG -- 5-6 donkeys, 3-4 decent players.

$20 SNG -- 2-4 donkeys, 5-7 decent to solid players.

$30 and higher SNGs -- 0-2 donkeys, 7-9 decent to solid players.

$50 SNGs -- typically 0 donkeys, 5-6 decent to solid players, 3-4 very solid players.

$100 SNGs -- very solid, some playing for a living at this level.

[SingleMaltFan]

so let me pose this question..i know you can make money off donkeys/fish in the rings but would you rather play against a more solid player in an SnG?

I havent figured this out yet and wondered what your opinion was....

I would rather be rivered by someone who beat me "legitimate" than some one just seeing every river no matter what and rivering me on a longshot draw...in a Sng you dont have the "longevity" to make up for the donkey's/fish's bad calls, especially in the limit SnG's i play..know what i mean?


i am still somewwhat a beginner so take my question with a grain of salt...

sb

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by SingleMaltFan

so let me pose this question..i know you can make money off donkeys/fish in the rings but would you rather play against a more solid player in an SnG?

I havent figured this out yet and wondered what your opinion was....

I would rather be rivered by someone who beat me "legitimate" than some one just seeing every river no matter what and rivering me on a longshot draw...in a Sng you dont have the "longevity" to make up for the donkey's/fish's bad calls, especially in the limit SnG's i play..know what i mean?


i am still somewwhat a beginner so take my question with a grain of salt...

sb

no no no no...

the difference i see is that both the donkey AND the solid player will have a better hand than you once in awhile. but only the donkey will make really horrible suckouts.

when i raise with AA, i want the donkey calling with anything, and he will. that's where we get all our chips!

the more you're getting sucked out on, the more you're getting your money in good (or the more you're slowplaying...which is not so much a good thing...).

[shadesofgrey]

Originally Posted by SingleMaltFan

so let me pose this question..i know you can make money off donkeys/fish in the rings but would you rather play against a more solid player in an SnG?

I havent figured this out yet and wondered what your opinion was....

I would rather be rivered by someone who beat me "legitimate" than some one just seeing every river no matter what and rivering me on a longshot draw...in a Sng you dont have the "longevity" to make up for the donkey's/fish's bad calls, especially in the limit SnG's i play..know what i mean?


i am still somewwhat a beginner so take my question with a grain of salt...

sb

statistics my friend.... if a dude is playing curmmy cards, you'll catch them more often than not.

I understand the feeling of getting river'd by a quality player vs. some goof playing crud. Overtime, if you play well, you will come out in front. Everyone is going to catch numerous bad beats -- its part of the game....

Personally, Ive gotten to the point where I dont care who (fish or shark) takes my money. I only care about my play. If I played the hand right and overtime that play will be profitiable, why give a rats rear who took it.

There is one caveat - I've found that when a fish takes money they are more willing to put it back out there.. so you have a better chance of taking it back from a fish than a stronger player.

[SpeakEasy]

Originally Posted by SingleMaltFan

i know you can make money off donkeys/fish in the rings but would you rather play against a more solid player in an SnG?

I would also recommend playing with bad players than good in a SNG, but also balance this with your skill and bankroll level. (i.e. if your skill and bankroll can handle it, would you rather play five $10 tables or one $50 table?)

To counteract the effects of what you may be suffering (outdraws by bad players that do not have 'legitimate' hands), tighten up early on! When you play in a SNG, you should be able to identify who the weakers players are based on hand selection and the number of hands that they play. If you are playing a solid, tight strategy, you aren't playing many hands at all until about the third level, and the donkeys will have dumped a lot of chips by then.

[SingleMaltFan]

ok, i think i see what you are saying, i just figured that since you are up against the fish for such a short time in any single game that game to game they can suck you out on bad hands, but what you are saying is that over the long run of playing SnG's you as the tight/ aggressive one have the advantage and should actually come out ahead...true?

i have one 1st, 2 3rds and many 6ths in 10 handed $5+1 Party limit games (along with a few 10ths and 9ths under my belt)...i think the advice aboout being much tighter in the first two or three rounds is sound and i will watch my play a little closer and report back...

i just wanted to throw out my comments to you all to see if i was thinking thru this correctly...but now i see a little more clearly

sb

[KingGeorgeC]

If you can't beat the bad players, you're not going to beat the good players.

Saying that you'd much rather get beat by good players makes little sense.


george

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by KingGeorgeC

If you can't beat the bad players, you're not going to beat the good players.

Saying that you'd much rather get beat by good players makes little sense.


george

it makes some sense. in a tournament, you usually want players to fold to your bets, b/c it's easy to go broke. on a flop that holds , and you hold , don't you really want your opponent to NOT call? if he does, doesn't that mean that he's something like 20% to bust you (or make you fold on the turn)?

in a cash game (especially a limit game), you want callers, b/c if you lose the hand, there are endless new hands to play, and presumably more bankroll.