[ilyu2]

Ok guys here's 2 hands I was delt with in 3 hands of each other. Should I have folded them or am I just blonde?
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ilyu2 [Kd Kc]
bbill50: calls $0.25
ilyu2: raises $0.25 to $0.50
snurrehopp11: folds
AnarcrusaN: folds
ckmo: folds
fingers35: folds
polipoli66: folds
Locust1: folds
BARFF: folds
ka357: folds
bbill50: calls $0.25
*** FLOP *** [Js 5c Ad]
bbill50: checks
ilyu2: bets $0.25
bbill50: calls $0.25
*** TURN *** [Js 5c Ad] [5d]
bbill50: checks
ilyu2: bets $0.45 and is all-in
bbill50: calls $0.45
*** RIVER *** [Js 5c Ad 5d] [5h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
bbill50: shows [7c Ac] (a full house, Fives full of Aces)
ilyu2: shows [Kd Kc] (a full house, Fives full of Kings)
bbill50 collected $2.75 from pot
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ilyu2 [Ad Ac]
AnarcrusaN: folds
ckmo: folds
fingers35: folds
polipoli66: calls $0.25
Locust1: folds
BARFF: calls $0.25
ka357: calls $0.25
bbill50: folds
bbill50 leaves the table
ilyu2: calls $0.15
snurrehopp11: checks
*** FLOP *** [2d 6c 2c]
ilyu2: bets $0.25
snurrehopp11: folds
polipoli66: raises $0.25 to $0.50
BARFF: folds
ka357: folds
ilyu2: calls $0.25
*** TURN *** [2d 6c 2c] [Jh]
ilyu2: bets $0.50
polipoli66: calls $0.50
*** RIVER *** [2d 6c 2c Jh] [6h]
ilyu2: bets $0.50
polipoli66: calls $0.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ilyu2: shows [Ad Ac] (two pair, Aces and Sixes)
polipoli66: shows [2h Qc] (a full house, Deuces full of Sixes)
polipoli66 collected $4.25 from pot

[CaptLego]

That's why I don't play limit.... you can't protect your hand from garbage like the ones that beat you.

On the second hand (where you had AA), I think you should have raised pre-flop. Maybe limit is different, but at low stakes it always seems like a mistake to slowplay AA. Maybe a raise would chase out Q2o (but somehow I doubt it, since he'd already called one bet).

The first hand was a little scary with the A on the board, but given your stacksize, it's likely you were going to lose all your money there.

I'm not crazy about the river bet on the second hand.... since you were raised on the flop, and called on the turn, I don't see how you'd be called by anything on the river that didn't beat you. Unless, maybe, a medium pocket pair?

I wouldn't have folded either hand, but I suck at poker.

[yeltzen]

Okay, on the first hand - you shouldn't be sitting at the table with only 5 or 6 times the big bet. Granted, on that hand you didn't flop anything you wanted to bet and reraise with, but still... if you did, you'd be sorry that you only had that little bit of money to play with. You should not have folded the Kings. If you fold them every time an Ace flops and you have no reason to believe your opponent has one, you'll miss out on a lot of money. And the guy was just check-calling you, so there's no reason to give him credit for an Ace.

On the second hand, you kinda botched it. You need to raise preflop (I know, I know... "but no one's gonna fold" - doesn't matter... you have the best hand, make people pay to draw out on it). When you got raised on the flop you HAVE to reraise. If he caps the betting, then you have to decide if he has KK, QQ, or JJ (very unlikely since he didn't raise preflop). Since those don't seem likely, then look at a set of 6s or 2s. There's not much else to cap the betting with here unless you've seen him do that on a flush draw before. But to me, capping the betting on that flop looks like a set of 2s that he doesn't want to see get flushed - and that's what he had. If you strongly think he has KK-JJ, then you will keep capping the betting with him down the river... otherwise, either fold or check-call the rest of the way... unless a club comes, then you should just be done with the hand.

In no-limit you could play these hands this way (is that what you normally play?)... but in limit, you have to be ultra-aggressive with your hands. You want to make idiots playing Q2o pay for the flop.

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by yeltzen

Okay, on the first hand - you shouldn't be sitting at the table with only 5 or 6 times the big bet. Granted, on that hand you didn't flop anything you wanted to bet and reraise with, but still... if you did, you'd be sorry that you only had that little bit of money to play with. You should not have folded the Kings. If you fold them every time an Ace flops and you have no reason to believe your opponent has one, you'll miss out on a lot of money. And the guy was just check-calling you, so there's no reason to give him credit for an Ace.

On the second hand, you kinda botched it. You need to raise preflop (I know, I know... "but no one's gonna fold" - doesn't matter... you have the best hand, make people pay to draw out on it). When you got raised on the flop you HAVE to reraise. If he caps the betting, then you have to decide if he has KK, QQ, or JJ (very unlikely since he didn't raise preflop). Since those don't seem likely, then look at a set of 6s or 2s. There's not much else to cap the betting with here unless you've seen him do that on a flush draw before. But to me, capping the betting on that flop looks like a set of 2s that he doesn't want to see get flushed - and that's what he had. If you strongly think he has KK-JJ, then you will keep capping the betting with him down the river... otherwise, either fold or check-call the rest of the way... unless a club comes, then you should just be done with the hand.

In no-limit you could play these hands this way (is that what you normally play?)... but in limit, you have to be ultra-aggressive with your hands. You want to make idiots playing Q2o pay for the flop.

Yes, indeed. (no sarcasm)

[jmda]

Ditto.

Alway raise with a big hand in limit - and no-limit. In no-limit I raise the same amount (3 to 4x big blind) with a large number of hands to keep people from getting a betting pattern on me, but You have to raise with a big hand - AA will get killed in a multi way pot - some idiot is going to see the flop with 2 Q off and catch a set. In limit they may see the flop anyway, but do like Yeltzen said and you can find out where you stand when you bet the flop and get raised.

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by jmda

Alway raise with a big hand in limit - and no-limit.

Actually, you should vary your betting in NL a lot so people can't read you (assuming the people you play with actually bother to read you... if not or you play online, just raise). If you always raise with big hands then people will know what you don't have when you don't raise. In limit it doesn't matter... raise with your big hands no matter what since there are an assload of hands you raise with in limit, anyways. Again, though, if you play with people who do actually read you, then it's okay to limp in with AA or KK when most of the players have folded.

Laying down AA isn't easy... I kinda made it sound like it was in my post, but it's not. Even if he does cap, don't expect to lay down AA every time someone caps when it's heads up. I've seen people do this plenty of times with AK. Still, it's unlikely they have that hand, but don't put it past them. Don't put A6 past them, either. Most of the time, you'll just check-call this to the river. Now, against 2 or more people helping to cap the better, it's pretty easy to lay AA down.

[w16227]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

Yes, indeed. (no sarcasm)

Another thubs up for Yeltzin's analysis.

Limit needs to be played aggressively. In the first hand - you received no information indicating your kings were not the best - so no way to fold them. In fact - a raise by the opponent may only put me into check-call mode with KK. There are simply too many poor players at that level to do otherwise.

Second hand - raise preflop. There are already several players in the hand and you want to punish them for daring to play against your aces. If you get lucky - you will also get the BB to fold. At this limit, I doubt that the Q2 is folding (he already called the BB), but anything can happen. Aces only play well against 1-2 opponents at most so you really need to do whatever you can to limit he field here. Best case would be for the BB to wake up with AK or another strong hand and he reraises. Even at the lowest limits, this usually knocks outjunk like Q2.

The only time to slowplay AA in limit would be if you had no real action unless you did. Like being in the SB or button and first in. If you feel that the remaining players wold fold to a raise, then you limp hoping that they improve enough on the flop to pay you off a little.

Second hand flop - reraise. You need to define your hand and give players with junk something to think about. You either push them off bad draws - or punish them for playing them. OK - so the quy had Q-2. He capps on the flop - and you figure to be behind - and can downshift. Check call to the river. In low limit games - the aces will still win 20-30% of the time unimproved here (the villan here could be playing any number of hands) and you will fill up like %10 of the time.

I do not think many limit players would have folded the hands, but many of us may have played the second one differently. This is one of the times where playing more aggressively would have been the correct thing to do - but the hand still would have been lost. Poker happens and this guy will pay you off over the long run.

If you feel that your poker chops are not up to snuff - get ahold of Millers book Small Stakes Holdem. It has a very usefull strategy for the loose games.

[yeltzen]

Originally Posted by w16227

I do not think many limit players would have folded the hands, but many of us may have played the second one differently. This is one of the times where playing more aggressively would have been the correct thing to do - but the hand still would have been lost. Poker happens and this guy will pay you off over the long run.

If you feel that your poker chops are not up to snuff - get ahold of Millers book Small Stakes Holdem. It has a very usefull strategy for the loose games.

The first part is one of the hardest things to accept. I've been playing limit for over a year now and I'm just starting to accept it now.

As for the second part, I agree. It's tough reading, though. You can always ask us here, too... seems most of us have read it.

[jmda]

I raise the same amount with 9 10 off and AA - I do vary it up sometimes, but people I play with any regularity know that if I raise, I usually have a good hand, but I could have crap.

I need to get a copy of that book, I have heard it is a good read. I do fairly well at limit now, but I took some beatings before I started winning with any regularity.

[w16227]

Originally Posted by yeltzen

The first part is one of the hardest things to accept. I've been playing limit for over a year now and I'm just starting to accept it now.

As for the second part, I agree. It's tough reading, though. You can always ask us here, too... seems most of us have read it.

Discussion IMO always helps more than straight reading, but - it helps to have a solid base to start from. I do not know ilyu2's background, but the wording suggests that she is a rookie (somewhat). If she takes a little time to read, then the discussions would be much more productiuve and she would improve faster. The better the questions - the better the discussion - the better the answer. Reading would also help her understand the times when we (we meaining chiptalk members, not you and me specifically) do not agree on the optimum strategy.ops:

Ilyu2 - look in the loarner library in the next week or 2. Once Ten is confident that the new software is running well, I will be posting some of my library. PM me if you want me to "reserve" you anything.