Fouled deck ruling

[jldecarlo]

At last night's tournament (at a table where I wasn't playing), we had a problem that I haven't seen before.

The cards were dealt, there was one raiser and one caller. Two people to the flop. The problem was that the dealer wasn't paying attention (likely distracted by the giant choking noise from the Dallas Cowboys), thought everybody had folded to the raise and gathered the muck into the deck. Apparently it wasn't cleanly on the top of the deck, just kind of randomly put together.

Ultimately, I just told them to re-shuffle the deck and deal the flop as usual.


Reasonable?

L

[Masterpellum]

Had a similar event at my game on Saturday two different times. First one, player goes all in and another calls as does one more player, as dealer is gathering mucked cards, she mucks first players all in cards...best way to handle this?

Second one....dealer is first to act and bets out, one caller, then an all in...dealer goes into the tank and finally calls the allin for less, other player thinks for about two minutes, during this time dealer gathers the muck including his cards. No one notices until the other player folds. Suggestions? Other than dealers paying better attention?

Sorry for the threadjack just thought this tied in well with your post, instead of starting another thread.

[jldecarlo]

Originally Posted by Masterpellum

Had a similar event at my game on Saturday two different times. First one, player goes all in and another calls as does one more player, as dealer is gathering mucked cards, she mucks first players all in cards...best way to handle this?

Second one....dealer is first to act and bets out, one caller, then an all in...dealer goes into the tank and finally calls the allin for less, other player thinks for about two minutes, during this time dealer gathers the muck including his cards. No one notices until the other player folds. Suggestions? Other than dealers paying better attention?

Sorry for the threadjack just thought this tied in well with your post, instead of starting another thread.

The standard rule is that if a player's cards are mucked then they are dead. Harsh, but that's the rule. If the cards are clearly visible in the muck then they MAY at the discretion of the house, be made live again. If they are mixed in the muck, then they're gone gone gone.

L

[tel0004]

I agree with the above post. Mucked cards are dead. Is that rule enforced in high level tournaments, you bet it is. It happend in the world series of poker once. They called the tournament director, and he said that the cards are dead, even if it was the dealers fault. In a house game, I would never be that strict. Let the player have the cards if it is obvious what they were. (or let that player tell a player who folded what his cards were. Let that player get the cards, that is what I would do in a low stakes friendly game) Either way it makes for a great case for a card guard (or just use the lowest value chip you have).

Now the original question. If the muck is mixed into the deck, the way I would try to handle it: If its obvious that the top of the deck is still in its original form, then deal as normal. If the much is on the top, then I agree a shuffle is probably best. I would assume most people could agree on that. I know in the case of a dropped deck, the rules simply say to assemble back to the original way as best as possible, but there is no need to go too deep into the rules on a house game.

[JM]

I don't see any other way you could handle it. You can't declare their hands dead since they did nothing to kill their hands. And if the stub is not retrievable then your only option would be to shuffle it and continue.

[stinky]

Couldnt you just cut the deck say 20 cards in? That way your not using mucked hands for the community cards?

If it were a home game, I'd either ask what the live players wanted, reshuffle, cut, or redo the whole hand. If its more official, I'd do one of the first 2.

[TTEMD]

If the players still have their cards and the dealer fouls the deck:
1. Pull any board cards that were on the table back out as they were
2. The players keep their cards
3. Dealer shuffles what is left of the deck and continues to deal the hand
4. Dealer does a penalty shot.

If the dealer takes another players cards, the rule is that the player's hand is dead. Alternate solutions will depend upon the friendliness of the game, the find-ability of the two cards and the type of person the other player is.

[BGinGA]

Originally Posted by jldecarlo

At last night's tournament (at a table where I wasn't playing), we had a problem that I haven't seen before.

The cards were dealt, there was one raiser and one caller. Two people to the flop. The problem was that the dealer wasn't paying attention (likely distracted by the giant choking noise from the Dallas Cowboys), thought everybody had folded to the raise and gathered the muck into the deck. Apparently it wasn't cleanly on the top of the deck, just kind of randomly put together.

Ultimately, I just told them to re-shuffle the deck and deal the flop as usual.

Reasonable?

L

If any mucked cards could be identified, those should be pulled out prior to reshuffling the deck and dealing the flop (with burn) as usual.

Note that if proper dealer procedure had been used, this would not have been a problem:
1. dealer mucks all losing hands
2. dealer awards pot to winning hand
3. dealer mucks winning hand and moves dealer button
4. dealer combines all mucked cards with dealer stub and starts new shuffle

Even in a pass-the-deal game, all dealers should use proper dealing procedures. Your distracted dealer totally skipped steps 1-3 above.

Originally Posted by Masterpellum

Had a similar event at my game on Saturday two different times. First one, player goes all in and another calls as does one more player, as dealer is gathering mucked cards, she mucks first players all in cards...best way to handle this?

Live hands are the responsibility of the player; cards mucked by the dealer are dead (even if the dealer's fault). In this case, if the first player's cards could be identified, they could be retrieved from the muck and returned to the player. If not, sorry, protect your hand at all times.

Originally Posted by Masterpellum

Second one....dealer is first to act and bets out, one caller, then an all in...dealer goes into the tank and finally calls the allin for less, other player thinks for about two minutes, during this time dealer gathers the muck including his cards. No one notices until the other player folds. Suggestions? Other than dealers paying better attention?

Not sure who's cards the dealer collected here -- his own cards, or the thinking player's cards (although it sounds like the dealer's cards). Either way, same ruling as the previous answer above: cards mucked by the dealer are dead. Last hand standing wins the pot.

[JoseRijo]

Originally Posted by stinky

Couldnt you just cut the deck say 20 cards in? That way your not using mucked hands for the community cards?

Shuffling all of the cards is probably the correct ruling, but I like this one the best from a probability standpoint.

[Krafticus]

Just another tangent to the thread, as I don't think it warrants a new one.

What is the correct action, when in the hand, the dealer picks up the deck, and about 15-20 cards fall of the bottom, and become exposed. They don't affect the flop/turn/river... but reveal a ton of dead cards.

Just declare them dead, exposed, and keep on moving? This happened at my last game, as the deck just slipped out, and he was holding it at a funky angle.

Mark