Correct ruling?

[wafflestomper]

So this happened in our tourney this weekend.

2 players in the hand, the flop comes. Bill bets. Dealer isn't paying attention and flips the turn before Steve has a chance to decide what to do.

What is the correct thing to do?

We put the burn card and the exposed turn card back in the deck, shuffled it, waited for Steve to call and put out a new burn and turn. In the end the mistake didn't effect anyone, but I was just curious as to what the correct ruling is...

[Krafticus]

I've seen it done 2 ways.

a) Burn the next card, and use the "river" card as the turn card. Exposed turn card only then gets shuffled back in, and then only the top card becomes the new river

b) Burn card stays burned, exposed turn card gets reshuffled into the deck. After the action is completed, the turn is then dealt (with no burn), and then play continues.

Either way, I don't believe the burn card should have been reshuffled into the deck.

Mark

[Duckbutter48]

I live about 45 mins from casino(Charles Town WV) and I play weekly with 3 of the dealers.. when a mistake like that happens they do what you guys did in OP....but they do say if there are house rules for these situations it over rides what they do at work...--of course they all say it never happens to them while they're work but the other dealers do it this way...--liars!!

[abby99]

Originally Posted by Krafticus

I've seen it done 2 ways.

a) Burn the next card, and use the "river" card as the turn card. Exposed turn card only then gets shuffled back in, and then only the top card becomes the new river

b) Burn card stays burned, exposed turn card gets reshuffled into the deck. After the action is completed, the turn is then dealt (with no burn), and then play continues.

Either way, I don't believe the burn card should have been reshuffled into the deck.

Mark

Method (a) is generally considered to be the best choice because the results are the closest to what the original board would have been. The original river becomes the turn, and the prematurely exposed turn card has a chance to reappear on the board. The burns are dead cards regardless.

[BGinGA]

Originally Posted by abby99

Method (a) is generally considered to be the best choice because the results are the closest to what the original board would have been. The original river becomes the turn, and the prematurely exposed turn card has a chance to reappear on the board. The burns are dead cards regardless.

^^ Abby is correct. At least four of the five board cards are the same, although placed in a different order on the board. Here is what our tournament league rules state (based on RRoP):

6.2 Premature Dealing
6.2.1-B If the fourth (turn) card is prematurely dealt and needs to be re-dealt, the dealing error is rectified in a manner to least influence the identity of the board cards that would have been used without the error. The dealer sets the premature turn card aside, and after flop betting is completed, the dealer burns another card, and deals what would have been the fifth card in the fourth card's place. After the turn card round of betting is completed, the dealer re-shuffles the deck, including the premature turn card that was taken out of play, but not including the burn cards or mucked discards. The dealer then cuts the deck, burns a card, and deals the fifth and final card (river card).

Although there is an even better choice, imo:

The post-flop action continues as if no burn/turn cards were dealt, and with the knowledge that the turn card will be re-dealt if needed. After all post-flop action is completed, this is the procedure if a turn card is still needed:

1. Premature turn burn card stays put.
2. Premature turn board card stays put, but only temporarily.
3. The river burn card is burned.
4. The river board card is dealt FACEDOWN.
5. The premature turn board card is then shuffled back into the remaining deck stub (no burn cards or muck/discarded cards are used).
6. The dealer cuts the deck, burns a card, and deals the new turn board card in it's proper place on the board.

Post-turn betting action continues as usual. Once completed, if a river card is still needed, the dealer exposes the previously dealt river card.

This approach not only puts ~at least~ four of the five correct board cards in play, but puts them IN PROPER POSITION. The turn card still has the same percentage chance to re-appear, and re-appear in the CORRECT POSITION. The river card is still the correct river card, and it is still in the CORRECT POSITION.


Here are the applicable RRoP rules on the subject:

IRREGULARITIES
15. If the dealer prematurely deals any cards before the betting is complete, hose cards will not play, even if a player who has not acted decides to fold.
16. .... Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred.....

SECTION 5 - HOLD'EM
5. If the dealer burns and turns before a betting round is complete, the card(s) may not be used, even if all subsequent players elect to fold. Nobody has an option of accepting or rejecting the card. The betting is then completed, and the error rectified in the prescribed manner for that situation.
8. A dealing error for the fourth boardcard is rectified in a manner to least influence the identity of the boardcards that would have been used without the error. The dealer burns and deals what would have been the fifth card in the fourth card's place. After this round of betting, the dealer reshuffles the deck, including the card that was taken out of play, but not including the burncards or discards. The dealer then cuts the deck, and deals the final card without burning a card.

Bob Ciaffone also includes additional commentary regarding this issue in RRoP:

Section 16 - Explanations
4. The rules given for rectifying a holdem situation where the dealer has dealt the flop or another boardcard before all the betting action on a round are inferior, because the dealer is told to not burn a card on a redeal. Since the “no burn” rule is so common, there was no choice but to use it here. It would be better for poker if the rule were changed to always burning a card.

The portion of this rule saying the dealer does not burn a card on the redeal is inferior. It is harder for the dealer to control the card to be dealt if a burn is required. The sentence in the rule should read, “The dealer then cuts the deck, burns a card, and turns the final card.”

The present method for handling a premature dealing on the turn is used to have what would have been the last board-card used on the turn, and not reshuffling the deck until just before the last card is dealt. This method has four-fifths of the boardcards remaining the same, albeit in a different order. It would be better to reshuffle before the turn, preserving the chance of receiving the prematurely dealt card on either of the last two cards, as opposed to cutting that chance in half. The superiority of reshuffling right away is illustrated if the prematurely dealt card makes a gutshot straight-flush for a player.

^^ This is why our tournament league rules include dealing a burn card when correcting dealer errors.

[abby99]

I like BGinGA's version except for the fact that the correct river card is left sitting face down on the table for some length of time. Similarly, I hate playing in home games where people deal out the entire board (including burn cards!) prior to exposing the flop, which IMO defeats the purpose of burning cards in the first place.

[wafflestomper]

Well, it sounds like I didn't screw it up too bad, which is nice, but I think I'll do that next time. I agree Abby, that I don't like whole boards dealt out, but for these rare cases, it should be fine.

[rakrul]

Originally Posted by BGinGA

This approach not only puts ~at least~ four of the five correct board cards in play, but puts them IN PROPER POSITION.

I don't see why this is relevant.

The turn card still has the same percentage chance to re-appear, and re-appear in the CORRECT POSITION. The river card is still the correct river card, and it is still in the CORRECT POSITION.

The only reason I see to do it your way is that the turn card has two streets to re-appear to "correct the fault" instead of just one but I don't think it's that big a deal. At least smaller than having the river card laying there nullifying the burn card.

Then again I'm of the "you wanted a random card, you got random card"-school. The reason why you don't just pull 3+1+1 random cards out of the deck is to minimize the risk of someone manipulating the board.

[BGinGA]

Originally Posted by rakrul

I don't see why this is relevant.

The only reason I see to do it your way is that the turn card has two streets to re-appear to "correct the fault" instead of just one but I don't think it's that big a deal. At least smaller than having the river card laying there nullifying the burn card.

Then again I'm of the "you wanted a random card, you got random card"-school. The reason why you don't just pull 3+1+1 random cards out of the deck is to minimize the risk of someone manipulating the board.

Once a hold'em poker deck has been shuffled and cut, what occurs afterwards is no longer 'random' -- the five cards that will appear on the board have been predetermined by the shuffle/riffle/cut.

Those specific five board cards, and the order in which they appear (which significantly affects play) should not be altered if at all possible (especially if due to a dealer error) -- because it will change the natural progression and outcome of the hand.

Sorry, but if you don't see the relevance in that, then I probably can't help you find it.