What's the technical ruling here?

Noonan · Tweet this Post! #1 10-20-2010, 11:50 AM

Friends and I are playing a very friendly cash game. The blinds are .25¢-.25¢ with a $20 buy-in. Everyone is a regular to this game except for Friend "A". He is semi new to our poker game and not a "poker guy", but watches some on TV. In fact most of the guys in this game are not hardcore "poker guys" and are just casual players.

Two of my friends are in a hand to the river. Friend "A" moves all-in. Friend "B" is now thinking about the call. As "B" is thinking about the call he flips ONE card over showing he has an Ace and then tosses the card on top of the Ace on the board to show he has top pair and then looks for a reaction. "A" believes this move to be a fold and therefore shows a 7-2 bluff and starts to drag the pot. "B" then calls and now wants the pot himself.

What would be the technical ruling here?

Flipping a card heads up in our game is not uncommon and usually never an issue, however, "B" tossing the card on the board was out of the playing norm. Is this not a clear cut fold considering the "tossing" of the card?

PhilTheThrill14 · Tweet this Post! #2 10-20-2010, 12:41 PM

Pretty sure when he tosses the card I would consider it a fold.

Then again I find people that "flip cards over to get a read" as silly.

BPTDirector · Tweet this Post! #3 10-20-2010, 12:46 PM

If the action was still live, it should have been declared dead as soon as the card was shown. In poker it is quite alright to lie your a$$ off about your hand, however it is considered illegal and your hand is declared dead if you divulge any of that actual holding during live play. That's off the top of my head, but I'm sure there's a ruling in Robert's rules of poker that will back this up.

And, it's not a legal move for the reason the guy is doing it, trying to get a reaction. I think a lot of the table talk that is so prevalent today in poker is a waste also ... This is just taking it another step further, unfortunately for the player showing the Ace to get a reaction while the hand is still ive, he just messed up.

BPT

PhilTheThrill14 · Tweet this Post! #4 10-20-2010, 12:48 PM

Nah - just two players in a cash game hand - you can flip your cards over. Not a dead hand. it is the action of throwing the card forward that constitutes a fold in my mind.

jdunford · Tweet this Post! #5 10-20-2010, 12:52 PM

In some casinos (including my local one), revealing a hand before showdown or before everyone else has folded when someone else is left to act (if you voluntarily show it) results in your hand being declared dead. IIRC, this is also mentioned in Robert's Rules but only for tournaments. Usually house rules (outside my local casino; on TV, etc) allow players to reveal cards and talk about hands, etc., ONLY when the hand is heads-up. So by my house rules, I'd declare player B's AX hand is still live and award the pot accordingly (after he calls), but my local casino would declare B's hand dead and award the pot to player A.

What did the host rule? If the rules weren't established before the game, I'd fall back on RRoP:
Home Poker Tourney - Robert's Rules of Poker Version 11

Under "Irregularities", rule 12:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert's Rules v 11

12. Procedure for an exposed card varies with the poker form, and is given in the section for each game. A card that is flashed by a dealer is treated as an exposed card. A card that is flashed by a player will play. To obtain a ruling on whether a card was exposed and should be replaced, a player should announce that the card was flashed or exposed before looking at it. A downcard dealt off the table is an exposed card.

(more has to do with dealing errors and flashing a card during the deal, not late in the hand)

Under "Section 15, Tournaments",

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert's Rules v 11

22. Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see contestants eliminated. A player in a multihanded pot may not show any cards during a deal. Heads-up, a player may not show any cards unless the event has only two remaining players, or is winner-take-all. If a player deliberately shows a card, the player may be penalized (but his hand will not be ruled dead). Verbally stating one’s hand during the play may be penalized.

JM · Tweet this Post! #6 10-20-2010, 12:54 PM

Some casinos do allow you to show cards heads up in a cash game and the hand isn't dead, but tossing a card towards the muck/dealer would be considered a fold pretty much anywhere I think. Whether its face up of face down wouldn't really matter IMO.

PhilTheThrill14 · Tweet this Post! #7 10-20-2010, 12:56 PM

OP has already stated that showing cards(s) is OK - as it is allowed in the current game. So the issue is with the throwing of one of the cards onto the community cards.

jbutler16 · Tweet this Post! #8 10-20-2010, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noonan

Friends and I are playing a very friendly cash game...Everyone is a regular to this game except for Friend "A"...In fact most of the guys in this game are not hardcore "poker guys" and are just casual players...Flipping a card heads up in our game is not uncommon and usually never an issue, however, "B" tossing the card on the board was out of the playing norm.

give the above facts, i don't think this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noonan

What would be the technical ruling here?

is what you want. you could make a plausible argument that RROP leads to ruling that the tabled ace was live (see jdunford above - irregularities, r.12) or dead (dead hand, r.1b).* neither rule speaks directly here and i don't think either argument is better than the other by a wide margin. obviously house rules vary with regard to showing cards and many other things, so asking for a technical ruling in this situation is very difficult if not nearly impossible.

the real goal, i'd think, is finding a fair solution. was the newish player aware of the practice of showing cards to read reactions? to your knowledge, had he seen it done in this or other sessions? there are a lot of considerations. much has been said on this board and elsewhere about the importance of balancing mindfulness of the rules and the need for friendly, casual games. this just looks like another one of those times where you're going to have to split the baby and someone's going to be unhappy.

*1. Your hand is declared dead if:
(b) You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet).

cdnmoose · Tweet this Post! #9 10-20-2010, 02:06 PM

Game over:

DEAD HANDS

1. Your hand is declared dead if:

(b) You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet).

As soon as he tosses his card away, it is a fold. Otherwise there is no difference between someone tossing one or both of their cards face up and folding, and this angle shooter. Also tell the angle shooter to die in a fire and laugh at him when he loses the pot.

Noonan · Tweet this Post! #10 10-20-2010, 02:25 PM

The host has always allowed the showing of a card in heads up situations. The newish guy ("A") was not familiar at all with showing of cards, and this was the first he had ever seen it.
"A"'s case: He flipped his card, and that should be a fold, therefore "A" should win.
"B"'s case: We are allowed to flip our cards in this situation and he eventually called, so "B" should win.

No one even brought up the "throwing of the card" until I did, even though I knew what "B"'s intentions were, and i felt that technically by throwing your card in it should have been mucked.

We left it to the host to come up with a fair solution. I think he let both players take back the all-in bets made after the river, and gave the the pot that was built from preflop - the turn to player "B".