Dead Hand?

[jerkwagon]

1st of all, i would never get a ruling on this at my home game but im just curious on the actual rules.

All in showdown in a cash game, DO you have to show both cards to take down a pot if the other player shows?


here is waht happened.
25c/50c NL

me Kd10d ($30)
villan 7h8c ($47)

preflop limp pot 5 way im BB i raise to $3 4 callers

flop
KhQh7c

i bet out $12 everyone folds to the villain who raises, I insta call

dealer deals out, 4h, then 10h

so the board is Kh Qh 7c 4h 10h

i asked him he if had the flush, he said yes, shows the 7h, i show him my 2 pair, I asked to see he other card since i called his bet and i wanted to know what he had. he then mucked the other card.

From what i recolect, (over heard) i though to win a pot you had to show both cards if the other player who called did. was his hand dead after the 1/2 muck?

[JM]

If you called, he has to show his hand if he wants to win the pot. One card is not a hand. Typical casino rule wherever I've played is you gotta show BOTH cards to win.

[BGinGA]

Originally Posted by jerkwagon

1st of all, i would never get a ruling on this at my home game but im just curious on the actual rules.

All in showdown in a cash game, DO you have to show both cards to take down a pot if the other player shows?


here is waht happened.
25c/50c NL

me Kd10d ($30)
villan 7h8c ($47)

preflop limp pot 5 way im BB i raise to $3 4 callers

flop
KhQh7c

i bet out $12 everyone folds to the villain who raises, I insta call

dealer deals out, 4h, then 10h

so the board is Kh Qh 7c 4h 10h

i asked him he if had the flush, he said yes, shows the 7h, i show him my 2 pair, I asked to see he other card since i called his bet and i wanted to know what he had. he then mucked the other card.

From what i recolect, (over heard) i though to win a pot you had to show both cards if the other player who called did. was his hand dead after the 1/2 muck?

Every showdown rule I've ever seen states that you must show all cards (two in hold'em, four in Omaha, seven in Stud) in order to be awarded a pot -- regardless if the loser mucks his showdown hand or not.

In a friendly cash game, I wouldn't rule his hand dead, but I wouldn't be awarding the pot to him either without first retrieving that card to show, along with a verbal warning.

Here are a few applicable rules from RRoP:

To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.

Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared.

All losing hands will be killed by the dealer before a pot is awarded.

Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game.

Imo, it is usually in the best interest of the game to have the best hand be awarded the pot. But it is certainly in the best interest of the game for players to follow the rules and proper procedure, too.

[jerkwagon]

Thanks guys. Clears it up for me

[JM]

I believe the reason for this is to show that the deck was not fouled. Like if one of the cards the winner is holding was the same as another one already on the board or in an opponent's hand.

[BGinGA]

Originally Posted by JM

I believe the reason for this is to show that the deck was not fouled. Like if one of the cards the winner is holding was the same as another one already on the board or in an opponent's hand.

Correct, or a hand containing a joker. Plus requiring that cards be shown at all reduces collusion. In addition, in both hold'em and other games, you must have (and show) the correct number of hole cards for that game in order to have a legal hand to be awarded the pot (some slack on the seventh card in stud, but otherwise a firm rule).

[Timmay69]

My understanding is this rule is meant to confirm whether collusion is taking place. IE a personn plays differently against one or more persons while playing completly different against the rest of the table. IE if he has the nuts and min bets or checks against a min bet on the river.

So yes you must show both in my games.

Originally Posted by BGinGA

Correct, or a hand containing a joker. Plus requiring that cards be shown at all reduces collusion. In addition, in both hold'em and other games, you must have (and show) the correct number of hole cards for that game in order to have a legal hand to be awarded the pot (some slack on the seventh card in stud, but otherwise a firm rule).

[JM]

That's a tournament rule, not a cash game rule. The casinos don't care if you play soft against one player vs another since they still get the rake either way. In a tournament though, it makes a big difference to everyone.

Originally Posted by Timmay69

My understanding is this rule is meant to confirm whether collusion is taking place. IE a personn plays differently against one or more persons while playing completly different against the rest of the table. IE if he has the nuts and min bets or checks against a min bet on the river.

So yes you must show both in my games.

[Harlequin011]

nth the collusion fouled deck responses.

But more importantly it's polite. If you are not a polite person in my game I'm not inviting you back. If it's your game, I won't be coming back. The rules do demand on both. If the person is making a big deal out of not showing, or purposely not revealing for some other reason that person is guilty of being a PITA.

[Timmay69]

It serves both cash and tourneys at my games. It never really comes in to question because we all hate each other equally at my house. And the rule can be revoked at anytime if it is abused by someone only looking for information. IE wants to know what the other hole card is so they can put them on a better range of starting hands.

Originally Posted by JM

That's a tournament rule, not a cash game rule. The casinos don't care if you play soft against one player vs another since they still get the rake either way. In a tournament though, it makes a big difference to everyone.