Rules Questions from LV

jldecarlo · Tweet this Post! #1 06-13-2010, 07:45 PM

Just back from a weekend in LV. Stayed at Aria and played a lot of poker there and at the Wynn. Still running and/or playing bad, but that's another story.

Anyway, during the daily Aria tournament, one of my friends calls an all-in from a short stack after the flop. My friend has AQ and made two pair on the flop. Immediately after the other player pushes, my friend calls and shows his hand. The other player sees the two pair and immediately tosses his hand face down in the muck.

The dealer says (correctly) that both hands should be shown in a tournament all-in showdown. He proceeds to fish two cards out of the muck and asks the other player if they are his - because it wasn't entirely clear that they were. The player confirms that the two eights are indeed his cards. Then the dealer dealt the turn and river. AQ stands up and my friend wins the pot.

Afterwards, there was a lot of conversation about the hand and nobody was very happy with the ruling, but it wasn't a big deal because the AQ held up anyway.

What do you think?

Second question:

Cash hand at the Wynn. I have AK and the board is 24QTJ with the face cards all hearts. There is a river bet and two calls - I am the last caller. I show my straight and one of the players mucks. The guy who bet the river picks up his hand, and says "two pair." He holds it upright in front of him like he's about to muck it. The player beside him says "you have a flush." In fact, he has 2h4h and a flush and won. I didn't say anything immediately, but later made a quick comment about it. I really was more bothered by the fact that I thought I had won the pot and had not (ie that I'd been slow rolled) than I was by the players actions. The guy with the flush could have mucked face up or face down, it wan't clear at the time. After all, cards talk. An hour or so later, the guy who called the flush came to me and was very apologetic. He explained that he thought the other player was showing his hand to the table.

What do you think about this one?

L

BigKyle · Tweet this Post! #2 06-13-2010, 11:10 PM

The tourney hand I dont really have a problem with because the onus is on the dealer. In my experience in AC and Vegas (more so in AC) if they screw up theres nothing you can really do, and the floormen will always protect the dealers.

The cash hand is bothersome and I wouldn't have done what the third player did--tell someone else what their hand was--but it happens a lot at low stakes live and I kind of expect something like that. The guy apologizing is more of a surprise to me, since he actually recognized what he did was possibly upsetting. But I kind of expect these two situations to be part of these games, and I don't think either one is way out of line. Now if the same things happened a second time or a third time, I would get upset.

BigKyle · Tweet this Post! #3 06-13-2010, 11:11 PM

Oh and I said low stakes because I thought I remembered you saying you played 1/2 and 2/5 NL games, not making an assumption.

BGinGA · Tweet this Post! #4 06-13-2010, 11:57 PM

Tourney:
Players fold hands, dealers muck hands. The player folded, but in a tournament heads-up showndown, he doesn't have that right. If the dealer can positively retrieve the two cards mistakely thown in the muck (they should be folded towards the dealer), then the dealer is correct to do so. But since he had to ask the player.... it sounds like he wasn't sure, and therefore, cannot accurately retrieve the hand -- and it should have stayed in the muck. If you wanted to dispute it, the time to do so is before any more board cards are dealt. A floorperson will usually back up the dealer, but not always - especially if the rules have been blantanly disregarded.

Cash:
Players fold hands, dealers muck hands. Neither happened in this case, although Mr. ThirdParty was out of line by reading the guy's hand for him before he either folded it or tabled it (if he had any intention of tabling it at all). Not much you can do about this one, other than complain to the staff who may or may not issue a verbal warning to the player at fault.

Josh · Tweet this Post! #5 06-14-2010, 06:04 AM

More importantly, HOW WAS GARTH???

Josem · Tweet this Post! #6 06-14-2010, 06:07 AM

IMO, poker should be a contest of who has the best hand at showdown.

You should spend less time worrying about trying to fiddle players out of pots with technicalities, and more time worrying about who has the best hand.

As a general rule, if someone has a better hand than you at showdown, they should win the pot. Give it to them, and worry about the more substantial issues that affect your life.

hardhouseinc · Tweet this Post! #7 06-14-2010, 07:10 AM

I say yes, correct. At pretty much any decent casino, they should show both hands... BUT, I wouldnt go out of my way if no one asked to see. If he mucks, no one says anything, ok move on... BUT, if someone asks to see the hand, since it was either checked down, called down, or whatever reason went to showdown, if anyone asks to see, they should be able to. Its kinda strange he wasted all that time though fishing them out and asking, if no one asked to see...

Cash game hand, that sucks, but I guess Ive saved players a time or two as well. They will say you got it, and muck a winner... When they are studying the board, look puzzled, whatever, i say, just show, dont much a winner.... So they will show face up and have almost folded the winner. Now, both times it happend, they were both ultra new fish players, so I thought helping them out would keep them in the game longer, and keep coming back to donate their money if they get a friendly feeling once ina while... So far its worked, and the fish keep donating. LOL.

Hope you enjoyed the trip though...
Ill be there for the Chip convention and the WSOP around the end of June.

jldecarlo · Tweet this Post! #8 06-14-2010, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josem

IMO, poker should be a contest of who has the best hand at showdown.

You should spend less time worrying about trying to fiddle players out of pots with technicalities, and more time worrying about who has the best hand.

As a general rule, if someone has a better hand than you at showdown, they should win the pot. Give it to them, and worry about the more substantial issues that affect your life.

I don't disagree with the sentiment but I would argue that in neither case did I try to "fiddle" anybody out of anything. Somebody, in both cases, rescued them from their own mistakes - mucking or nearly mucking a hand that could still win. Isn't it also true that poker is a game where you take advantage of the other player's mistakes??

We're seeing Garth in July.

L

rakrul · Tweet this Post! #9 06-14-2010, 08:10 AM

The first is a bit sketchy since we don't know if the dealer was confirming or asking. If they are identifiable (and it looks like they were) then they should be retrieved, if not - tough luck and don't run the board.

On the second situation, there sounds to a lot of 2h4h if the board was all hearts

but if villain didn't table the hand the other player should not say anything - OPTAH. If had tabled it, then he (or anyone) should declare the flush.

Lottery Larry · Tweet this Post! #10 06-14-2010, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGinGA

The player folded, but in a tournament heads-up showndown, he doesn't have that right. .

The player doesn't have the right to be an idiot and throw away his chances?

I understand the idea behind the rule, but I'm not sure this is a collusion-type situation to worry about....