Settle an Argument

[schullerjason]

Donkey in seat 7 to my left goes all-in out of turn, after I had limped in middle position in seat 5. The player between us in seat 6 had not acted yet, and stated so. The question is, given that player 7 jumped the gun and went all-in out of turn prior to seat 6's action, is that binding? Here's what I found on Robert's Rules:
9. A verbal statement in turn denotes your action, is binding, and takes precedence over a differing physical action.
10. Rapping the table with your hand is a pass.
11. Deliberately acting out of turn will not be tolerated. A player who checks out of turn may not bet or raise on the next turn to act. A player who has called out of turn may not change his wager to a raise on the next turn to act. An action or verbal declaration out of turn is binding unless the action to that player is subsequently changed by a bet or raise. If there is an intervening call, an action may be ruled binding.

It appears to me that if player 6 had just called, PLayer 7's all-in could be binding, but if Player 6 had raised, then the all-in was NOT binding? The rules do not specifically cover an out of turn all in. Thoughts?

[siNdreAd]

Originally Posted by schullerjason

It appears to me that if player 6 had just called, PLayer 7's all-in could be binding, but if Player 6 had raised, then the all-in was NOT binding? The rules do not specifically cover an out of turn all in. Thoughts?

Just from reading the rules it seems clear that if there is a raise his action is not binding... and if there is just an intervening call then I guess it's up to the floor to decide? The use of the word "may" leaves some wiggle room so it's a tough call.

[squiggly]

An "all in" is simply a bet equal to the bettor's chips. That said, the ambiguity is in the rules probably to allow for TD rulings for various situations. I like to think of it as this: if the intervening action is a bet more than the out-of-turn bet, then I don't think it should be binding. But if it is less, then the action should stand.

[StevenH72]

Basicallt RROP state that if a player acts Out of turn deliberately his action is binding, unless the action between the time when the player acted out of turn and the action reaching said player has changed.

So does this mean if it was an accident the player can change his mind, when the action gets to him....how do you determine (and prove) a deliberate act out of turn?

[squiggly]

I don't differentiate. Accident means he wasn't paying attention and being forced into the action will persuade him to pay attention.

[smoore]

you got it, OP. the thinking is that if the interim players just call then there really hasn't been a change in action. if they raise then action has changed and it would presumably change player 7's thought process.

[Smashedfrog]

This is exactly why I've installed electrodes into all the seats at my table. No one has ever bet out of turn since their installation.

[schullerjason]

Originally Posted by Smashedfrog

This is exactly why I've installed electrodes into all the seats at my table. No one has ever bet out of turn since their installation.

If it were my place, that would be an option, until then, I have only the Rules as my cattle prod....

[Lottery Larry]

Originally Posted by schullerjason

If there is an intervening call, an action may be ruled binding.

It appears to me that if player 6 had just called, PLayer 7's all-in could be binding, but if Player 6 had raised, then the all-in was NOT binding? The rules do not specifically cover an out of turn all in. Thoughts?

Does the house use RR, or their own rules?

Do you want to discourage donkey from coming, or are they willing for some leeway?

[abby99]

Originally Posted by smoore

you got it, OP. the thinking is that if the interim players just call then there really hasn't been a change in action. if they raise then action has changed and it would presumably change player 7's thought process.

This is correct. Bets and raises are action, but folds, checks, and calls are not considered to be action.

In my game, acting out of turn happens sometimes, and we follow Robert's Rules. None of our players abuse this; the "transgressions" are usually the result of momentary lapses of attention.