[CK15c]

Hey everyone. At this bar I work at, Thursdays in the summer I run free poker tournaments, and after, we've been having enough people for a 25c/50c NL cash game. The first few weeks I played, but lately, I've just pretty much acted as pit boss, and I'm cool with that. I act as the authority on just about everything that goes on during a poker game, tournament or cash, and in this group, I do know the most. This situation came up last night, and I'd like some input.

So there's two people in a pot, this is a player dealt game, and the dealer is not in the pot. This guy kind of gets on my nerves, but that didn't matter; I'd have done the same thing anyways. He had done this a few times before, and knowing this is a player dealt game, I just kind of bite my lip and try not to overwhelm the game with rules and procedures unless needed. The flop came, as normal, and then while waiting for action, he burns and turns the next two cards face down, basically so he's done. He put the turn on the left side of the flop, and the river to the right side of the flop. Action completed on the flop, and he turned the wrong one over. I happened to be watching so I immediately pointed it out, others at the table agreed. We showed the exposed would-be river card to everyone, and turned the correct turn card over. I then made a quick ruling, which I think is right - or at least I've seen something similar, maybe I'm mixing rules or something though - to leave the card that was exposed out, reshuffle the deck, and deal the new river card without a burn. Some agreed with me, while the dealer, who always gets on my nerve while playing cards, reluctantly shuffled and just kept saying you don't reshuffle the deck. Another guy who was in the pot was saying the exposed card should've been shuffled in. The river ended up going check-check, and was inconsequential to the outcome of the hand, but I then went to my computer to refer to Robert's Rules of Poker.

One part says an exposed card, like this one, cannot play. But elsewhere I think it said something about reshuffling it in. I was confused, so I'm looking for the Chiptalk interpretation of the rules. All I know, the ruling I made was "in good faith" and that was correct. Generally, people in this game trust my rulings, but occasionally things like this come up, and most aren't familiar with any procedures regarding these situations. Sorry for the long-winded post, but I eagerly await some advice. Thanks!

[wdwells]

Pre-dealing, as I like to call it, is one of my pet-peeves when playing in player dealt games. What ususally happens in my games, someone deals all 5 cards before the action begins and someone mucks their hand into the down cards and no one know whick is which. But, in your case, I believe the river card should have been placed back into the deck and the cards reshuffled and a new river card dealt.

When I run my home games or when I help out someone with their game, the best rule to ALWAYS remember is "The house as final say in all rulings" and I always remind anyone of this as soon as they start to disagree. IMO, right or wrong, you should always have final say in the way things are run in your games. So what if you didn't reshuffle the river card with the deck, its our game, your rules period.

[tator2k]

If I remember correctly, you need to put the turned up card BACK in and then shuffle. So it has the possiblity of being drawn back up. Otherwise you're affecting the # of outs without that card.

OR since it's completely random at that point, it doesn't matter what on is flipped first.

I've also watched a player/dealer unconsiously shuffle the deck while waiting for action. In this case just play it as is again since you haven't seen the cards yet, play 'em. Who knows him might have shuffled them back to the same starting position.

[beekeeper]

Originally Posted by wdwells

the river card should have been placed back into the deck and the cards reshuffled and a new river card dealt.

Yes, with a new burn.

You should tell the dealer privately to refrain from predealing and point to this case. The exposed river card could have been consequential to one of the players, and by his misdeal, one of the players could have lost a pot.

Let him know he is misdealing when he does that.

[Damon]

what beekeeper said.

Originally Posted by beekeeper

Yes, with a new burn.

You should tell the dealer privately to refrain from predealing and point to this case. The exposed river card could have been consequential to one of the players, and by his misdeal, one of the players could have lost a pot.

Let him know he is misdealing when he does that.

[KingZilla]

In this situation, I would have returned the prematurely exposed river card to the deck and reshuffled. NO BURN, as the correct number of cards were already burned when he layed out the board. The turn card would then be exposed and that betting round played then the new river card turned up for the final betting round.

[Derf Design]

You are Correct !!!! Winner !!!!!

Originally Posted by KingZilla

In this situation, I would have returned the prematurely exposed river card to the deck and reshuffled. NO BURN, as the correct number of cards were already burned when he layed out the board. The turn card would then be exposed and that betting round played then the new river card turned up for the final betting round.

[luckychick]

This is difficult to make a ruling on, as it is not how poker is dealt. Pre-dealing shouldn't happen, so there shouldn't be a problem.

That being said, if he's going to do it, and you're going to let him do it (which you said you've bit your lip before) what difference does it make which card he flips over first? They're both random. Either he's stacking the deck, or he isn't. If he's stacking the deck, then you've got bigger problems. If he isn't, well, problems arise with this kinda stuff, so either don't let him do it at all, or jsut chalk it up to randomness. Honestly, I just would have shrugged and let it go.

Here's a list of rules:

Originally Posted by Robert's Rules

Originally Posted by Robert's Rules

5. If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. If there was no betting on a round because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded.


6. If the dealer burns and turns before a betting round is complete, the card(s) may not be used, even if subsequent players elect to fold. Nobody has an option of accepting or rejecting the card. The betting is then completed, and the error rectified in the prescribed manner for that situation.


7. If the flop needs to be redealt for any reason, the boardcards are mixed with the remainder of the deck. The burncard remains on the table. After shuffling, the dealer cuts the deck and deals a new flop without burning a card. [See “Section 16 – Explanations,” discussion #2, for more information on this rule.]


8. A dealing error for the fourth boardcard is rectified in a manner to least influence the identity of the boardcards that would have been used without the error. The dealer burns and deals what would have been the fifth card in the fourth card’s place. After this round of betting, the dealer reshuffles the deck, including the card that was taken out of play, but not including the burncards or discards. The dealer then cuts the deck and deals the final card without burning a card. If the fifth card is turned up prematurely, the deck is reshuffled and dealt in the same manner. [See “Section 16 – Explanations,” discussion #2, for more information on this rule.]

You can try and fish out what you would like from that... maybe 5 and 8 are the most applicable. I think if you were trying to fix it I would go with putting the exposed card back and shuffling, without the burns.

[cdnmoose]

I don't let people pull that crap at my house and it friggin' burns me when people do it at other home games.

The purpose of the burn card is to prevent anyone to have pre-knowledge of a card (through a marked card back) before each round of betting is complete.

Tell the ******* to deal properly or sit out.

[dad604]

Agree. No use having burn cards if you pre deal the cards. The whole idea of burning a card is to prevent someone from know what the next card will be if it is marked.

Having said that, a fair way to deal exposing the river card before the turn card would be just to play that card and then use the turn card as the river card, that way the cards remain the same. And then impress on everyone NOT to pre deal the cards!!!!!!!!