[broncoboss]

Hi folks,
I run a small poker league. We play once a month. Points are kept and at the end of the year we have a tournament of champions. We usually have between 12-20 players each month. Over the last two months a few rules questions have popped up. Here they are.


CASE #1
A river bet is called. The original better lays his hand down face up and declares, "I have two pair." The caller lays his hand down FACE UP and says "you got me beat." Guy at the table says, "hey man you got a straight." Caller rakes chips in. Original better gets pissed. What is the correct ruling? I rule that the cards play themselves and regardless of what caller says, his hand is his hand. The dealer is responsible for officiating the hand, not the players. In this case, the dealer was not the guy who spotted the straight. But in my opinion, that is irrelevant.


CASE #2
A river bet is called. The caller (for some unknown reason), lays his hand down first FACE UP. The caller has A-K on a Q-10-3-7-9 board for ace-high. As soon as the bet was called, the better says "you got me, I was taking a shot" and threw his cards FACE DOWN. After the caller rolled his hand over the original better says, "Oh, I can beat that." He then picks up his cards and shows A-3 for one pair. What is the correct ruling? I ruled that the player made a folding motion and threw in his cards face down. Therefore his intention was to fold.

However, now that I think about this in retrospect, I could be wrong. Since he played his hand to the showdown, his hand is also live as long as it does not hit the muck. It has been about 6 months since I have played in the casino. But I believe the dealer flips over each players cards that goes to a showdown. When you play online, you can go back into hand history and see what each player that went to showdown had in their hand. So, do the cards play themselves in this case as well?

Case 1 - The cards speak - no other way - even if someone totally misses what they have on the board, if it is spotted and his cards are better he rakes in the pot.

Case 2 - A little more iffy to some but not really to a casino - the bet was called, cards not in muck, the cards speak and I believe the dealer would show both shown down hands because collusion could occur if you allowed a muck here that may result in a chip dump to a partner at the table. I know that's not what your buddy was upset about since he lost when he thought he had won, but he really had never won the hand.

BPT

[jdunford]

Originally Posted by broncoboss

Hi folks,
I run a small poker league. We play once a month. Points are kept and at the end of the year we have a tournament of champions. We usually have between 12-20 players each month. Over the last two months a few rules questions have popped up. Here they are.

I read the situations and agree with BPTDirector, but...

The situations don't matter. All that matters is what I quoted. YOU run a poker league. That means, the rules you set are the ones that are upheld. If you state (and presumably enforce) the relatively standard rule that "cards speak", then that's the way it is. If you state that what a person declares is what counts (unlikely) or that folded/mucked hands at showdown are dead (more likely), then those are the rules in play.

It's very important to have a written set of rules that you're going to use and stick with. There are lots of hold'em rules out there (I use Robert's Rules), and keep a copy with me at all the tournaments I host. I don't necessarily have them printed on a big bulletin board or anything, but they're also posted on the web site for my "league". You can see them here:
Chem Poker Tour (CPT)
(Right-most column; Robert's Rules v. 7)


Really, what it comes down to is:

"The tournament director will have the final say in any disputes."

[tomb1]

Originally Posted by BPTDirector

Case 1 - The cards speak - no other way - even if someone totally misses what they have on the board, if it is spotted and his cards are better he rakes in the pot.

Yes, this is correct. It does not matter if the dealer or another player spots the error. In fact, the rules state that the other players should speak up if they see a mistake about to be made.

Originally Posted by BPTDirector

Case 2 - A little more iffy to some but not really to a casino - the bet was called, cards not in muck, the cards speak and I believe the dealer would show both shown down hands because collusion could occur if you allowed a muck here that may result in a chip dump to a partner at the table.

Were the bettor's cards face down but still in front of him? The general rule is that if the cards are clearly not mucked, then the bettor can turn over the cards and those cards speak -- he can claim the pot. The rule states that, "in the interest of the game, the dealer can turn over those cards if they are specifically identifiable."

Local rules could change this, with a specific rule about "forward motion is a fold." WSOP Circuit events are supposed to use this rule, so I don't think you were totally out of line.

[Freelancer72]

both situations, cards speak. the 2nd one, as long as the cards haven't hit the muck, and are retrievable, they're still live. that's how i do it when dealing at the casino...

[Couga]

FWIW - in some really big games, BIG games, the players have to identify their hands. Face up cards mean squat unless the hand is declared. But keep in mind that all players are aware of this fact.

- Couga

[jldecarlo]

I agree with the above. The hands are live and the cards speak in both contests. It is worth noting that if this is an all-in situation, both players MUST show their hands (in a tournament). I struggle with players not wanting to show hands in an all-in situation if they didnt' win, or wanting to keep them hidden until the river is dealt.

L

[dsferris]

Are your rules written down anywhere, in the league I play in similar to yours, there are written rules brought to each event, and posted on the website. iI believe one of the first rules is CARDS SPEAK. Written rules are important as we have seen in several threads recently.

[Slim7]

I would agree with everyone in that it is YOUR game... you should decide. With that being said I think the first case is straight forward, the cards play, it doesn't matter that he mis-read his hand..he still has the winner.

In the 2nd case, the original fold also wins (IMO) due to the fact that his cards were clearly distinguishable from the muck or remaining cards. This happened in a WPT event at Foxwoods last year where J.C. Tran was knocked out of the tourney when his opponent threw his cards in (both all in after flop) when he saw the Tran had flopped trips. The board ended up giving the opponent a runner runner straight and they actually retreived his hand from the muck and it was declared the winner!!!! There was a bunch of controversy around it, but the ruling was that there was no more possible action left in the hand and his cards were clearly distinguishable in the muck, so they played!!!! The video was on card player when it happened. Crazy stuff... so I would say that your example is much less agregious (sp?) and easier to say he still wins. That's my thoughts for what its worth.