[SugarV]

This happened in a two-table monthly tourney that my brother plays in. I was not there...so I am getting info second hand, but I think my bro was pretty accurate on the details.

I was called as an "outside source" for a ruling, and want to double check with you guys. I'm pretty sure that I made the right call. I'll let you know my descision, after.

This is the hand to combine tables, so each table is short handed.

Situation:
Table 1: An all-in situation, players on that side of the room are loud, since longshot is panning out.

Table 2:

Player 1 puts in small raise. Raise is verbal, and chips are put in front of player. Dealer repeats the raise, due to the noise.

Player 2 says all in, no motion, no touching of cards or chips. Dealer does not reaffirm all in.

Player 3, thinking player two called, calls, what is thought the initial small raise. Puts small raise in center. Dealer affirms the call, due to noise.

Player 2 says, I called all in.

Player 3 says he didn't know that, since he didn't hear and the dealer never repeated it.

Player 2 says that Player 3 can just surrender his small raise into the pot and fold. Dealer states that Player 3 made a verbal call, and must commit all his chips into the pot.

Player 1 folds. Player 2 goes runner-runner to win.

What would your call have been?

[Sneds]

(This is my opinion and not really based on any rules) but if the dealer believed that Player 2 and 3 had just called Player 1s bet, then Player 3 should have the option of removing his bet fully.

However, if the dealer heard that Player 2 had gone all in and then player 3 called without realising then the all in call stands.

[whataboutj]

IMO there are a couple issues:
1. The dealer wasn't keeping control of the hand or being consistent by confirming player 2's all in.
2. Player 3 did not confirm what the bet was since player 2 did not move ANY chips into the pot

Did the dealer hear player 2 verbalize "all in"? If not then I believe player 3 should be given the option to fold since there is no one able to confirm the all in. If the dealer did hear the "all in" declaration then player 3's call is bidning and they are not smart for verifying the action of player 2 given the situation

This is why I am a big fan of having chips be moved into a pot after a verbal declaration is made when there is more than 2 players in a hand or left to act.
J

PS- I'm sure this is definitively outlined in Robets rules but i am at work and it is difficult to ge to it

[OnTheButton]

Did any of the other players hear Player 2 declare his "all-in"?

I've had dealers 'not hear' a verbal actions before, only to immediately have another player closer to that player confirm what they had said.

If nobody heard it, then you could deduce one of two things:

1. He didn't say it.
or
2. He didn't say it loud enough.

You are supposed to verbally declare your intent, not mumble something under your breath, so that it can be altered later if you should desire to change it based on pending actions.

[NoFear]

Since you guy are so loud, you should consider an ALL IN button. The guy who said ALL IN place the button in front of him. Problem solve for loud table. LOL

IMO, player 3 has an option to go ALL IN or take back this call amount back.

[dasquared]

Assuming SOMEONE else heard player 2's all-in the first time, I'd commit player 3. The dealer did not affirm the all-in, but he did not affirm the "call" either, so I couldn't allow player 3 to use that as an excuse. IMHO, I think it is 3's responsibility to make sure he is clear on the preceeding action, and not anyone else's. The fact he heard player 2 make some statement with no motion woulkd have demanded I clarify before action, but I'm like that...

[jojobinks]

this is just my opinion...

all action at the table should be able to be followed VISUALLY.

[jojobinks]

oops, hit submit on accident.

continued:
this is the beauty of the game and what makes it so annoying when people don't know who's turn to act it is.

let's say i'm not paying attention than start, out of nowhere. i can tell everything just by looking. i can see where the button is so know who the blinds are. also, the chips tell me these things. i can see who's folded. i can see who hasn't acted yet (b/c he's the first guy clockwise from the blinds that still has cards!). i can see what the bets are without verbal declaration. i can see how big the raise is.

i don't need the dealer or players to say anything at all for these things to be clear.

when a player says allin and then just sits there, we open the game up to this sort of confusion.

possible solutions:

1. when you move in, you must move all your chips in.
2. when you move in, you verbally declare AND move in a couple stacks of your biggest chips (i understand this rule has been used in the past in the wpt/wsop when the stacks are monstrously huge).
3. an allin button (which i hate, but w/e)

if you use one of those rules, there's no way the noise can make a difference. players can be responsible for keeping track of the action on their own, without legitimate excuses for misunderstanding.

[abby99]

Right you are, whataboutj, about this being covered in Robert's Rules of Poker.

Section 3, Betting and Raising, Rule 13. A player who bets or calls by releasing chips into the pot is bound by that action and must make the amount of the wager correct. (This also applies right before the showdown when putting chips into the pot causes the opponent to show the winning hand before the full amount needed to call has been put into the pot.) However, if you are unaware that the pot has been raised, you may withdraw that money and reconsider your action, provided that no one else has acted after you. At pot-limit or no-limit betting, if there is a gross misunderstanding concerning the amount of the wager, see Section 14, Rule 8.

Section 14, Rule 8. If there is a discrepancy between a player's verbal statement and the amount put into the pot, the bet will be corrected to the verbal statement.

Based on RROP, and assuming that this particular game follows RROP, Player 3 had the right to reconsider his bet, and if he opted not to call Player 2's all-in, he could withdraw his call money from the pot.

[tomb1]

Player 2 started this getting off-track by not making any motion to correspond to his verbal all-in. Happens all the time, of course.

Dealer compounded the problem by not reaffirming Player 2's push. If he didn't hear it, he should not have let player 3 act until player 2 acted. Player 2 also should have said something when his push was not acknowledged.

When Dealer reaffirmed Player 3's small call, he was showing clearly that he misunderstood/didn't hear Player 2's push. But Player 3 cannot be blamed for the dealer's mistake.

So Robert's Rules applies directly -- Player 3 did not know the pot was re-raised all-in, and should have the opportunity to withdraw his bet (or call the all-in, of course).