Ruling Help -- Is this Hand Dead or Not?

EasilyFound · #1 (**permalink**) 10-21-2007, 07:55 AM

I posted this on 2+2, so if you visit both boards, this will be a repeat for you.

Here is what happened:

Two players all in. Both players misread the hands and the pot is awarded to the player with the worst hand. The player with the best hand (who called the all-in) concedes defeat, leaves the table, and gets a drink at the bar. Several minutes pass, and the player who had the best hand returns to the table, where the other player has restacked the chips for the next game (it is a heads up tourney) and the cards have not been touched and are laying face up just as they had been when the players shook hands after believing that the game was over. The player who had the best hand says he had a straight and should have won. Both players look at the hole cards and the board and agree that pot was awarded to the wrong player. The player with the best hand, who had less chips than the other guy, recalls how many chips he had left to call his opponent's all in.

How should the tourney director rule? Does the answer depend on whether the players can reconstruct the betting before the all-in?

Wylecoyo · #2 (**permalink**) 10-21-2007, 08:13 AM

Seems like a hard call to me; however, based on the latest version of Roberts Rules of Poker, I think the "Tournament Director" or host in this case has the discretion to make a ruling however he thins is best: "Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player."

Since the cards were not mucked and were visible face up to all, I think the host should discuss the situation with the players and arbitrate a ruling - i.e., as opposed to just directing the result of the hand be turned over, discuss it with the players and try to get everyone to agree the result should be turned over as the results were misread.

If your players are honest and friendly this shouldn't be a problem; however, if one of them is a tool there will be no way to avoid trouble in this situation.

smoore · #3 (**permalink**) 10-21-2007, 11:31 AM

That's a weird one. I say the game is over because the player holding the straight conceded defeat, not only of the hand but of the entire tournament.

moral of the story: Always muck all the cards while he's at the bar.

EasilyFound · #4 (**permalink**) 10-21-2007, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoore

moral of the story: Always muck all the cards while he's at the bar.

LOL. Agree 100%.

MacGrad · #5 (**permalink**) 10-21-2007, 08:42 PM

I agree -- the hand should be dead and the game over. The one player left the table while a hand was technically still in play -- he's not protecting his cards anymore, and the dealer should have mucked them immediately instead of leaving them face up.

the3rd · #6 (**permalink**) 10-22-2007, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacGrad

I agree -- the hand should be dead and the game over. The one player left the table while a hand was technically still in play -- he's not protecting his cards anymore, and the dealer should have mucked them immediately instead of leaving them face up.

Absolutely no way. Have you even watched a poker tournament? If the dealer killed every exposed hand after an all-in just because a player walked away from the table, Jerry Yang and most other tournament winners wouldn't have won. This is a tournament, the hand is being protected by being exposed to everyone.

One of the fundamental elements of poker is the best hand wins when all competing hands are exposed. Conceding defeat means nothing. Saying "you win" is not binding in most casinos, rule books, or to me. If someone says that to me, I won't give up my cards until I hear "fold" or those cards hit the muck and the pot is pushed to me. That is protecting your hand.

Need some clarification.

TDA Rules

9. Face Up
All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all betting action is complete.
29. Killing Winning Hand
Dealers cannot kill a winning hand that was tabled and was obviously the winning hand. Players are encouraged to assist in reading tabled hands if it appears that an error is about to be made.
1. Floor People
Floor people are to consider the best interest of the game and fairness as the top priority in the decision-making process. Unusual circumstances can on occasion dictate that decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over the technical rules. The floor person’s decision is final.
20. Declarations
Verbal declarations as to the content of a player’s hand are not binding; however, any player deliberately miscalling his or her hand may be penalized.

MacGrad · #7 (**permalink**) 10-22-2007, 07:42 PM

In theory, I don't disagree -- however, in one of the local casinos around here (can't say for sure about the others, since I haven't played tournaments there), if you leave the table during the middle of the hand, your hand is considered dead and would be mucked/collected by the dealer.

In a casino tournament, the cards would not have been left face up on the table for several minutes afterwards -- if the dealer missed the hand as well, the cards would have been collected in with the rest of the deck, and there wouldn't have been a situation where the mistake would have been seen.

Do I have a problem with restarting the tournament? No -- as long as both players agreed on the chip counts, restart. However, if there was a discrepancy...

the3rd · #8 (**permalink**) 10-22-2007, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacGrad

In theory, I don't disagree -- however, in one of the local casinos around here (can't say for sure about the others, since I haven't played tournaments there), if you leave the table during the middle of the hand, your hand is considered dead and would be mucked/collected by the dealer.

In a casino tournament, the cards would not have been left face up on the table for several minutes afterwards -- if the dealer missed the hand as well, the cards would have been collected in with the rest of the deck, and there wouldn't have been a situation where the mistake would have been seen.

Do I have a problem with restarting the tournament? No -- as long as both players agreed on the chip counts, restart. However, if there was a discrepancy...

I've seen a dealer at a table next to mine kill a hand of a player away from the table in a casino tournament. The player voluntarily committed chips to the pot, but was not all in. He threw a fit.

I agree if the dealer misses the hand and mucks the cards, there is no recourse. Hopefully this would never happen with a dealer. That is part of their job.