[Buddha]

I have a couple people who seem to disagree with me, but I think that I am right. What happens when someone bets the river, has a caller, and the original bettor says nice hand and mucks ( just on a bluff), does the caller have to show his hand to be awarded the pot, or can he just muck and collect the chips?

[MeridianFC]

Technically a winning hand must be shown (See Robert's Rules "Showdown" Rule 1).

That said in my game in this situation I would not require it. The winning player should wait until the other player has completely surrendered his hand it had it made dead by the dealer. All of this said since the hand was called down any player could ask to see either hand. Wouldn't normally happen in my game though.

[pkf655]

If everyone else mucks their hand the last person in gets the pot and they do not have to show anything. If they are called down then they must show.

[jdunford]

Originally Posted by MeridianFC

Technically a winning hand must be shown (See Robert's Rules "Showdown" Rule 1).

Since no showdown is necessary (the other player mucked), the only player remaining doesn't have to show his hand. He can voluntarily if he likes (as always), but is not required to. You only have to show your hand (all your hole cards; yes, that's all 4 in Omaha) if you want to claim a challenged pot.

[99%evil]

Here's a scenario that came up a couple weeks ago, I have 3,4 os and the flop comes, 2,3,5 two hearts , someone bets and I don't believe the guy has anything so I call, turn comes another 2 he checks, I bet, river comes an 8 hearts. I bet $10, the guy looks at his cards, shakes his head shows his hand and says all I have is a pair of fives and starts to muck. I tell him as I'm scooping the pot, "Um no, you had the nut flush (he has Ah5h)" He then said "Oh I win"...He said he checked, I said I bet $10 and he showed your cards and said you only had a pair of 5's, you never called the bet.

I took the pot, I didn't care, he missread his hand and wasn't paying attention to the action. He did not call my bet and exposed his cards and was mucking.

I should have not said a thing about his hand, but shaking your head, stating you only have 5's and throwing your exposed cards down without calling a bet seems like a fold to me.

Am I wrong?

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by Buddha

I have a couple people who seem to disagree with me, but I think that I am right. What happens when someone bets the river, has a caller, and the original bettor says nice hand and mucks ( just on a bluff), does the caller have to show his hand to be awarded the pot, or can he just muck and collect the chips?

if you have a hand and no one else has one, the pot is yours. why would you need to show it?


99%: he hadn't said fold, and he hadn't actually mucked yet? seems like you're screwed there.

[99%evil]

He didn't call a final bet.

[jojobinks]

Originally Posted by 99%evil

He didn't call a final bet.

nor did he muck. looks to me like he hasn't acted yet.

[jdunford]

Originally Posted by 99%evil

He didn't call a final bet.

Was there an action line?

Revealing his cards isn't necessarily a fold... He could claim that he was considering the call and hadn't decided yet. Until he says "fold" or turns his cards face-down and pushes them towards the centre of the table (preferably that they touch the muck), his hand is still live - at least in my games. And the fact that he said "I only have a pair of 5's" doesn't mean anything, since "cards speak" is the standard rule employed (unless it isn't at your game). Also, he could've legitimately not noticed your $10 bet and thought he was checking on the river and showing down, but when corrected (by the dealer), he has the option to call or fold... and it's just unfortunate for you that someone pointed out he holds the nut flush.

The latter situation (mis-reading one's hand) happened to me in a tournament a while back. A n00b LAG, who had "strong means weak, weak means strong" oozing out of him, was trying to push everyone around with garbage (like he'd "seen on TV"). I stood up to him with TT, flopped top set, baited him with a small bet (out of position) that caused him to raise more than the pot (and act arrogantly as he did so), I acted like I was uncomfortable and reluctantly called... I check-called on the turn (same drama when he over-bet the pot), and I checked again on the river, sure that he wouldn't turn down one last opportunity to bluff at the pot. He pushed all-in, I insta-called and flipped over my top set. He said, "I thought you were bluffing, I only have ace-high"... but when he mucked his cards, he through them down face-up into the muck... I was raking in all his chips when someone else pointed out that he'd rivered the nut flush (runner-runner) without noticing it ... and I was left with an M of 2 after I matched up his final all-in bet. I'd seen him slow-play a nut-flush draw earlier, so never suspected that's what he was on. He admitted he would've played it totally differently (i.e. checked the turn and value-bet the river) had he noticed his 4-flush on the turn.

[beowulfe]

Originally Posted by jdunford

I only have ace-high"... but when he mucked his cards, he through them down face-up into the muck...

If they touch the muck pile, they are dead - he loses despite the flush.