Showdown, he said straight, other player muck, there was no straight

gueb · #1 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007, 08:35 AM

- Showdown, player B said straight and show his card.
- At the same moment player A, muck is set of 8 (i personaly saw the 88 before he mucked it)
- One second later, hey there is not straight

The mucked card where the winning hand. I try to understand the Roberts Rules in that case... Not clear...

"may result in forfeiture of the pot" and "hand is dead"

ky70 · #2 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007, 08:40 AM

Robert Rules does allow for some leeway for these type of situations. Here is the mucked hand rule from the 'Dead Hands" section of RR:

2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.

IMO, it is in the best interest of the game to award the pot to the set of 8's...although they made the mistake of tossing their hand prematurely, you don't want to open the door for that angle to be played where players are misrepresenting their hands in attempts to get their opponents to muck prematurely.

PhilLaFond · #3 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ky70

Robert Rules does allow for some leeway for these type of situations. Here is the mucked hand rule from the 'Dead Hands" section of RR:

2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.

IMO, it is in the best interest of the game to award the pot to the set of 8's...although they made the mistake of tossing their hand prematurely, you don't want to open the door for that angle to be played where players are misrepresenting their hands in attempts to get their opponents to muck prematurely.

Great advice from Ky70. Just another example of why players should let the cards speak! I've been on both sides of that scenario and it's a real dagger when the mucked hand can't be retrieved.

Phil

99%evil · #4 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007, 08:56 AM

If the person showed then mucked, I would think it would be very easy to give the hand to the person with the set of 8's. If the cards were easily indentified from the muck I also think they should be awarded the hand. If neither applies, tough decision. If someone emphatically states they have a straight, shows the cards and at first glance appears to be a straight and someone mucks...then the table realizes the error...who gets penalized?

hachkc · #5 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007, 09:31 AM

If the cards can be retrieved, they obviously should be to confirm the hand and reward the pot to the winner.

I assume the real question is what to do when the cards can't be retrieved from the muck or no one can verify the hand. Personally, the fairest thing to do is simply chop the pot. If Mr. Miscalled Str8 has a lot of "history" and has already been warned, I could see having him forfeit the pot to Mr. Mucked Set though this would be a difficult decision; depends on the nature of the game. Mr. Miscalled Str8 should be given a warning at this point and informed that if he miscalls a hand again, he may forfeit his hand and any claim to the pot.

If Mr. Mucked Set flashes his set to a bystander (but not to the table) before folding them, is this evidence admissible? Obviously, Mr. Miscalled Str8 shouldn't be rewarded for mis-representing his hand but neither should Mr. Mucked Set just arbitrarily get the pot without having any of his cards shown.

In lieu of any other information, chop it IMO.

Big Mike · #6 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007, 10:12 AM

I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but in the exact scenario described in the OP, player B should probably get the pot. It isn't clear if Player A showed (tabled) his cards or not. If he did, then yes, he should get the pot. Otherwise, he has to have some responsibility to check the board. Player B didn't say straight and then wait till the other guy mucked, he said straight and flipped his cards. He probably really thought he had the straight, and wasn't trying to shoot an angle.

I say (again, unless he flipped his cards over) that player A has learned an expensive lesson.

hachkc · #7 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Mike

I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but in the exact scenario described in the OP, player B should probably get the pot. It isn't clear if Player A showed (tabled) his cards or not. If he did, then yes, he should get the pot. Otherwise, he has to have some responsibility to check the board. Player B didn't say straight and then wait till the other guy mucked, he said straight and flipped his cards. He probably really thought he had the straight, and wasn't trying to shoot an angle.

I say (again, unless he flipped his cards over) that player A has learned an expensive lesson.

I believe I understand your point about enforcing the rules but you are in essence rewarding bad behaviour; hell I'll always miscall my hand now just on the chance I can get someone to muck a better hand. Yes player A should have tabled his cards anyways but which of the 2 mistakes was more grievous here: miscalling a hand or mucking what you were told was a losing hand. Ultimately, you need to make a decision that is in the best interest of the game (casino game, friendly home game, serious home game, etc) and that is only something the host/TD/etc can decide.

yeltzen · #8 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007, 11:06 AM

People need to turn their effing cards over and quit worrying about someone getting a "read" on them. I see this crap too much. Turn your damn hand over and you don't have to worry about any of this.

rimmerryan · #9 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yeltzen

People need to turn their effing cards over and quit worrying about someone getting a "read" on them. I see this crap too much. Turn your damn hand over and you don't have to worry about any of this.

Agreed !!!
This happened to me over the weekend..... the guy I was HU against in the pot yelled out which pair he had, thinking it was the best, and I just routinely flipped over my cards.
Luckily, he went ahead and did the same, and I ended up taking it down just because I out-kicked him. Had I not flipped them over, there was a good chance he would have one the pot.

Just show your darn cards...

R.

yeltzen · #10 (**permalink**) 06-18-2007, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rimmerryan

Agreed !!!
This happened to me over the weekend..... the guy I was HU against in the pot yelled out which pair he had, thinking it was the best, and I just routinely flipped over my cards.
Luckily, he went ahead and did the same, and I ended up taking it down just because I out-kicked him. Had I not flipped them over, there was a good chance he would have one the pot.

Just show your darn cards...

R.

Honestly. People think they're so slick by mucking without showing their hand, but it's just being stupid. At our home games, I'm probably the most serious about poker. Still, I probably couldn't tell you very much about how everyone plays. I could give you some basics, but that's about it. Mucking or showing in this situation would change nothing for me. All I would be worried about is whether or not I won, I wouldn't even be thinking about how the hand was played.

If you're playing in some hardcore game where everyone has books on each other, you might want to find a different game.