Ruling question -- LB and BB chopped!

OutOfCrown · #1 (**permalink**) 02-13-2007, 04:08 PM

Curious to get other ideas on this, happened a few nights ago.

Self-dealt tournament. At a table I was *not* at, it folds to the LB and BB who are relatively new tournament players. They agree to chop (yes, I know, this is not allowed) and take their blinds back and muck their cards. The next hand is started when finally someone at the table yells "Floor" and I come over to see what's up.

The first thing out of my mouth was "of course you can't chop" and I ordered them to replay the hand at same blind positions. One quizzical look from a player made me realize that ok, that wasn't entirely fair either, so exasperated I just said "hang on, ok look: never do that again" and allowed play to continue (i.e., allowed the chop to stand).

In retrospect, I think I should have ordered the two blinds to be put into the pot as dead money for the next hand (though that's not entirely fair either).

It was early in the tournament, blinds were very low compared to stack sizes (if this affects your decision process ... the issue gets a lot thornier if we are at the all-in lottery stage of astronomical blinds!)

Thoughts? Obviously, they shouldn't chop. Obviously it should have been stopped the moment one of them said "chop?" and before they both mucked. But given how it went down -- any other ideas about how to rule?

jmc · #2 (**permalink**) 02-13-2007, 04:21 PM

Force SB to give the BB his SB -- otherwise just let the chop stand.

smoore · #3 (**permalink**) 02-13-2007, 04:47 PM

Second decision was correct. Nothing else can really happen because we are on the next hand. Had everything been identifiable and you been informed before the deck was scrambled you could have had them play the hand out.

They can't be allowed to play another hand.
They can't be forced to post dead into the next pot.

The only other thing you could have done was give a penalty and since they honestly didn't know I believe a warning is the only fair ruling possible.

Couga · #4 (**permalink**) 02-13-2007, 05:01 PM

I think you did the right thing. I agree with Smoore.
- Can't replay the hand.
- Can't put dead money into the pot.

I guess you could rule the money that was out there Dead and just take the SB and the BB from the respective players and put those chips back in the rack, but that would be pretty weak in a home game so I think you did it right.

- Couga

smoore · #5 (**permalink**) 02-13-2007, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Couga

I guess you could rule the money that was out there Dead and just take the SB and the BB from the respective players and put those chips back in the rack, but that would be pretty weak in a home game so I think you did it right.

- Couga

This would also be a reasonable solution in a situation where everyone is expected to know the rules. I'd give n00bs a break though.

OutOfCrown · #6 (**permalink**) 02-15-2007, 06:02 PM

Thanks everyone -- good/helpful feedback!

Mr Meaner · #7 (**permalink**) 02-15-2007, 07:52 PM

It happened, let it stand, tell them not to do it again.. move on next hand the timer is running.

tomb1 · #8 (**permalink**) 02-15-2007, 08:00 PM

I've seen that SB/BB "chop" happen at a couple of poker rooms. Kinda like, "oh, nevermind" once it's folded around to the blinds. I don't like it and I'd never do it, but it's allowed in some folks' house rules.

Mr Meaner · #9 (**permalink**) 02-15-2007, 08:36 PM

It's fine for a cash game. But in a tournament when the blinds in the later rounds makes a big difference if the SB or BB is short stacked.

bolgenmod · #10 (**permalink**) 02-17-2007, 01:42 PM

At a low-limit cash game table in a casino where there is a rake, it is customary to chop the blinds. The biggest reason for doing so is that the rake can make playing the hand ridiculous (because there is little profit in doing so). I rarely look at my hand before it is my action, but if no one is calling and I am in a blind, I never, ever look at all: I just ask "chop?" and we do.

One other thing: either you chop or you don't. Some people may not like it if you don't chop, but whatever: as long as you make it clear you never chop, you are fine. BUT if you chop once and then won't chop the next time, people at the table can get (justifiably) mad. And who wants a grumpy table? (And btw, if you are at a low-limit table at which many hands end up getting chopped, you are at the wrong table!)

At a home game where there is no rake, it is silly to chop: just play the hand.

And as others have already said, in a tournament (home game or casino) it is just not allowed.