completing the bet in turnament play?

hico · #1 (**permalink**) 12-02-2006, 04:10 PM

OK, NL turnament play here and say under the gun makes a bet of 100 chips, seat two goes all-in for less (40 chips), I'm in seat three and try to raise. Dealer says I can only complete (40 + 60 chipes) not raise because all-in was less than 1/2 the original bet, if all-in was more than 1/2 the bet I could raise. Why can't I raise the original (UTG) bet --- what does all-in have to do with me raising UTG? This is an example and not a real situation, so it may not be clear but if anyone understands what I'm asking can you explain?

hod · #2 (**permalink**) 12-02-2006, 04:18 PM

What? I don't get it. Why can't you raise? NL? And only one raise to you?

Button Potato · #3 (**permalink**) 12-02-2006, 04:27 PM

The dealer is wrong - you can raise any amount that is at least x2 the original $100 bet.

OutOfCrown · #4 (**permalink**) 12-02-2006, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Button Potato

The dealer is wrong - you can raise any amount that is at least x2 the original $100 bet.

He didn't say what the blinds are, but of course what you meant to say was that you can raise any amount that is at least equal to the amount of UTG's raise over the big blind. E.g., if blinds are 20/40, and UTG makes it 100, minimum next raise is to 160.

But to the main point: yes, the dealer was wrong. Think of it this way: if that player who went all-in had folded, would you have had the option to raise? If the answer is yes, then of course you STILL have that option even if the player makes an incomplete raise (instead of folding).

This question does make me wonder whether you were actually facing some other scenario. Depending on the ruleset being used, an incomplete all-in bet (an all-in that does not constitute a full legal raise) does not reopen the betting to a player who would not otherwise already have the option to raise.

Same example: Blinds 20/40, UTG raises to 100. Next guy goes all-in for 110. This is not a legal (complete) raise, so it does not reopen the betting to UTG. That means if someone calls the 110, when it gets back to UTG he can't reraise it from 110. UTG can call, of course, but he didn't "earn" the right to reraise from the incomplete all-in. Only if someone else along the way put in a real, legal, raise (e.g. to 160 or more) would that reopen the betting for UTG in this case.

I have seen house rules that vary quite a bit on this point though. Also, in Limit games they usually follow a half-raise threshold rule which is different.

Button Potato · #5 (**permalink**) 12-02-2006, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OutOfCrown

He didn't say what the blinds are, but of course what you meant to say was that you can raise any amount that is at least equal to the amount of UTG's raise over the big blind. E.g., if blinds are 20/40, and UTG makes it 100, minimum next raise is to 160.

Huh? The minimum raise in NLHE is at least as much as the previous bet or raise in the same betting round. If blinds are 20/40, and UTG makes it 100, minimum next minimum raise is to 200.

ky70 · #6 (**permalink**) 12-02-2006, 06:28 PM

The fact that you have not yet acted preflop means you could raise regardless of the action before you. If it is your first action preflop (and you are not a blind) you always have 3 options: call, fold or raise...and the action before you does not change those 3 options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutOfCrown
He didn't say what the blinds are, but of course what you meant to say was that you can raise any amount that is at least equal to the amount of UTG's raise over the big blind. E.g., if blinds are 20/40, and UTG makes it 100, minimum next raise is to 160.

Quote:

Huh? The minimum raise in NLHE is at least as much as the previous bet or raise in the same betting round. If blinds are 20/40, and UTG makes it 100, minimum next minimum raise is to 200.

OutofCorwn is correct is his scenerio. BB of 40 followed by a total bet of 100, would be a raise of 60 (100 = 40 + 60), and any subsequent raises would have to be atleast 60 which would make the minimum total bet 160 (40 + 60 + 60).

scottwire · #7 (**permalink**) 12-02-2006, 07:04 PM

"if all-in was more than 1/2 the bet I could raise."

The dealer is confusing rules here

1) You have not acted yet, therefore you can do whatever you'd like as long as your raise is at least double the previous raise. As someone said before, if blinds were 20/40, then a reraise to at least 160 is in order.

2) The 1/2 bet rule is only used in the following scenario:

Blinds 20/40. Player A raises to 100, which is a raise of 60 chips. If Player B raised to 120, this raise is now only 20 chips, less than half of a 60 chip legal raise. If you call 120, Player A then is not allowed to reopen the action because there has not been a full raise after him. He is only allowed to call the extra 20 chips or fold.

hico · #8 (**permalink**) 12-03-2006, 12:48 AM

I was not in on this action --- infact I was trying to follow the argument one table away from the table I was playing on ---- hence my missunderstanding. Now that I read the posts from both OutOfCrown and scottwire I'm sure that was the case. Someone must have wanted to illegaly reraise himself because of an incomplete bet before/after him. I think I've got it now --- thanks for the help.

smoore · #9 (**permalink**) 12-03-2006, 03:34 AM

You can always raise if you have not yet acted in the current betting round.

There is no "one half" rule in big-bet poker, that's from limit poker.

You may not raise if you have already acted and someone has raised all-in for less than a FULL raise. No "one half" rule in NL as per above. The AI for less than a full raise essentially closes the action... unless:

If action is again opened by a player who has not yet acted on the current betting round, action is OPEN. i.e. blinds 5/10, you raise to 100, I raise AI to 160 in the cutoff. Now the button wants to raise but isn't sure how much he can raise. He is allowed to COMPLETE my raise and make it 190 to go as a minimum raise. Of course he is allowed to raise more. Once he does that, YOU are now allowed to reraise him.

Had he just called my 160 you cannot reraise as he has not reopened the action.

I used to screw these problems up all the time but once I "got" the first sentence of this post I don't.

jldecarlo · #10 (**permalink**) 12-03-2006, 08:35 AM

One easy way to look at it is to think about what would have happened if the partial raise ("sweetener") had simply been a call. If you could have raised (either because you had not bet in this betting round, or because there had been a raise after your bet), then you can raise. If you could not have raised (because the betting would have been closed), then your only options are to call or fold.

L