[Billard]

This happened in our home game last night, and I think we handled it right, but perhaps y'all will have some better insight.

UTG with an average stack raises. UTG+1 re-raises, for half her chips. Everyone folds back around to the UTG player who goes into the tank. The dealer mistakenly thought UTG+1 had simply called the raise and hadn't reraised, so she burned and turned over the first two cards of the flop, a QT. UTG still had action to him, as he hadn't yet called the UTG+1 re-raise.

Here's what we did. The flop stood, but the third flop card was not revealed until UTG made his decision. He decided at that point to just call. The 2 completes the flop, and UTG bets enough to set UTG+1 all-in. UTG+1 calls with AK, and UTG reveals AQ. The Q came on the turn and the 7 on the river. UTG+1 was knocked out.

We came to this decision after pausing the game and checking through Robert's Rules. We used the rule, "15. If the dealer prematurely deals any cards before the betting is complete, those cards do play, even if a player who has not a cted decides to fold." It made for a very uncomfortable moment, and I'm not sure if we could have handled the situation differently at all. Thoughts? Suggestions?

[wijwij]

I think you need to re-read Robert's Rules.

"If the dealer prematurely deals any cards before the betting is complete, those cards will NOT play, even if a player who has not acted decides to fold." [emphasis mine]

Procedure for one way to handle this is described in the homepokertourney.com booklets which print Robert's Rules.

The recommendation is: leave the burn card on the table, gather and shuffle all the board cards into the remainder of the deck, cut, and make a new flop without a burn.

See the "Explanations" section at the end of Robert's Rules for details. (Bob says there that he doesn't like part about not burning a new card.)

[jojobinks]

not only does robert's rules say otherwise, but it's just a horrible decision had anyone given it any thought. the player gets to make a pot committing decision after seeing 2/3 of the flop? sheesh...

[compost kid]

Originally Posted by wijwij

The recommendation is: leave the burn card on the table, gather and shuffle all the board cards into the remainder of the deck, cut, and make a new flop without a burn.

)

Absolutely the only way to handle this situation.

[Billard]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

not only does robert's rules say otherwise, but it's just a horrible decision had anyone given it any thought. the player gets to make a pot committing decision after seeing 2/3 of the flop? sheesh...

As a group we'd decided to use Robert's Rules as our guiding rules document. Your suggestion of recasting the flop was my first reaction, but then we paused to look up the rule as they're listed at Cardplayer.com. That's where I got the quote from above. Item 15 in the Cardplayer version is covered in item 16 of the HPT version, but has the exact opposite ruling.

[smoore]

cardplayer.com: ******* everything up for decades!
cardplayer.com: we don't know ****!
cardplayer.com: does anyone even believe us anymore?

There's a couple suggestions for cardplayer's new slogan. What idiots. I'm sorry they screwed a hand up for you so incredibly.

Basically, whenever this happens just pick up the card(s) that shouldn't be out there and leave the burn. Leave anything that should be out there (i.e. if this happens on the turn, you obviously leave the flop that was seen and bet on). Reshuffle, just like a new hand (riffle riffle strip riffle minimum) and continue.

friggin' cardplayer.

edit: on this page they get it right. where did you find the error? http://cardplayer.com/rules_of_poker/texas_holdem

[ky70]

Originally Posted by smoore

...Basically, whenever this happens just pick up the card(s) that shouldn't be out there and leave the burn. Leave anything that should be out there (i.e. if this happens on the turn, you obviously leave the flop that was seen and bet on). Reshuffle, just like a new hand (riffle riffle strip riffle minimum) and continue...

BUT, if this happens on the turn, you are suppose to burn a card and then use the river/fifth card as the turn/fourth card (when betting action is complete for the flop) and the prematurely dealt turn card is returned to the stub/deck and the stub is reshuffled, cut and then a new river card is dealt (when betting action is complete for the turn) without burning a card.

[smoore]

ORLY? Weird. Thanks. I don't do it that way but now I know.

I guess this is to prevent people from complaining that if you reshuffle before dealing the turn you have two "wrong" cards, where the old river/new turn is a "right" card that would have been out there anyway.

so you leave the premature burn and then burn again when you deal the new turn? Or do we just not burn three cards?

[Billard]

http://www.cardplayer.com/rules_of_poker/general_rules

That's were we were looking, under "Irregularities". I've already downloaded the HPTs pdf document of Robert's Rules, and I'll be bringing that version to our future games.

[ky70]

Originally Posted by smoore

ORLY? Weird. Thanks. I don't do it that way but now I know.

I guess this is to prevent people from complaining that if you reshuffle before dealing the turn you have two "wrong" cards, where the old river/new turn is a "right" card that would have been out there anyway.

so you leave the premature burn and then burn again when you deal the new turn? Or do we just not burn three cards?

Burning the card is just so you are replacing the premature turn card with what would have been the river card...without burning a card, you would be replacing the premature turn card with what would have been a burn card. The same amount of burn cards are used for the hand as you do not burn a card after reshuffling the stub and cutting the cards...you just place the new river without burning.