[scott1453]

This happened in my home game this week and I am wondering how it should be handled and what the ruling is... Two guys were involved in what was a pretty big pot... It came time to flip the cards and player 1 shows two pair... Player 2 says "You got me" and player 1 begins raking the pot... All of a sudden, one of the other players at the table points out that player 2 is actually sitting on a flush... PLayer 1 stops raking the pot almost instantly and there is some confusion at the table... Player 2 finally states that since he didn't notice the flush that player 1 can continue raking the pot even though his hand was beat...

So, what is the ruling if a player doesn't notice that he has the winning hand and another player that is not involved in the hand points out the winning hand before the chips are raked...

[99%evil]

If the cards hit the muck, they are dead...but the cards speak for themselves if they're just sitting in front of him. If he made a motion to muck them, then they'd be dead in my opinion. If he laid them out and said he was beat that's another story.

[i run 8s]

Originally Posted by 99%evil

If the cards hit the muck, they are dead...but the cards speak for themselves if they're just sitting in front of him. If he made a motion to muck them, then they'd be dead in my opinion. If he laid them out and said he was beat that's another story.

Part of this is an argument for another day.


In this case, and 99.9% of all cases the cards speak louder then words.

NOW for the other day argument.

"If the cards hit the muck they are dead. "

That statement “MAY” be untrue. Evils opinion may be that they should be dead or maybe at his house games, his house rules state they are dead. Roberts rules of Poker has a totally different take on the matter. We paly by Roberts rules, unless house rules are different

[Fins]

Cards speak... only way to play.

[SandmanDC]

Other than the two players involved, the dealer is the only other person to call the outcome. If the cards are in the muck, player 1 wins.

[jojobinks]

sure, cards speak. there are some mitigating factors here, though.

-the guy with the flush mucked
-the guy with the flush surrendered the pot at showdown
-the guy with the flush surrendered the pot again after finding out he had a flush
-finally, it's unclear from the original post. but if i show my hand, and you say "it's yours," then i expect it to be mine. he didn't show down, so it's kinda hard for the cards to speak. the guy next to him just happened to notice he had a flush? that's not cards speak. that's the guy next to him being a busybody. if you show your hand down, then cards speak. if you try to quietly fold, then you can't win the pot...

[insane_irish]

Originally Posted by SandmanDC

Other than the two players involved, the dealer is the only other person to call the outcome. If the cards are in the muck, player 1 wins.

if you really want to be technical about it ONLY what the dealer says matters, not any of the players involved. And ONLY the dealer can award the pot, so player 1 was raking the pot prematurely.

Unless the house rules state differently, cards speak, period, no matter who points out what the correct hand is it is the dealers obligation to award the pot to the highest hand, no matter if the player called it correctly or if a bystander corrected a misread hand.

And I agree with i run 8s, unless it is in the house rules just because they hit the muck or were discarded with a mucking motion does not make them dead. If they are readily identifiable and retrievable from the muck they can remain active. Based on the account given I would say that at the very least the cards were "mucked" face up which of course would make them readily identifiable and retrievable.

Therefore IMO withstanding any written house rules it is Player 2's pot.

[insane_irish]

Originally Posted by jojobinks

sure, cards speak. there are some mitigating factors here, though.

-the guy with the flush mucked
-the guy with the flush surrendered the pot at showdown
-the guy with the flush surrendered the pot again after finding out he had a flush
-finally, it's unclear from the original post. but if i show my hand, and you say "it's yours," then i expect it to be mine. he didn't show down, so it's kinda hard for the cards to speak. the guy next to him just happened to notice he had a flush? that's not cards speak. that's the guy next to him being a busybody. if you show your hand down, then cards speak. if you try to quietly fold, then you can't win the pot...

Where does it say he mucked? The dealer is the only one allowed to award a pot to anyone. One player conceding a loss does not change that fact. If the guy was folding them quietly they would have been face down, thus mucked and no one could have corrected the read.

Again it is the dealers responsibility to award the pot to the highest active hand, somebody verbally conceding but still showing is still a showdown, and the dealer has to award the pot to the highest shown hand. If both people show hands it is a showdown. Nothing either one of them nor anybody else says at the table matters, the cards speak and the dealer awards it to the highest hand accordingly.

The guy surrendering the pot after the correction should have never been allowed to happen in the first place.

[scott1453]

I guess I should have been more clear... Player 2 was not quietly folding his cards... He flipped them over on the table and stated that he was beat... All cards were still on the table as well as the chips when the other player not involved in the hand (and incidentally, not the dealer) pointed out the flush...

[insane_irish]

again, withstanding any written house rules to the contrary

from Roberts rules

THE SHOWDOWN

1. To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.

2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot. (For more information on miscalling a hand see "Section 11 - Lowball," Rule 15 and Rule 16.)

3. Any player, dealer, or floorperson who sees an incorrect amount of chips put into the pot, or an error about to be made in awarding a pot, has an ethical obligation to point out the error. Please help us keep mistakes of this nature to a minimum.

4. All losing hands will be killed by the dealer before a pot is awarded.

5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that is eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

6. Show one, show all. Players are entitled to receive equal access to information about the contents of another player’s hand. After a deal, if cards are shown to another player, every player at the table has a right to see those cards. During a deal, cards that were shown to an active player who might have a further wagering decision on that betting round must immediately be shown to all the other players. If the player who saw the cards is not involved in the deal, or cannot use the information in wagering, the information should be withheld until the betting is over, so it does not affect the normal outcome of the deal. Cards shown to a person who has no more wagering decisions on that betting round, but might use the information on a later betting round, should be shown to the other players at the conclusion of that betting round. If only a portion of the hand has been shown, there is no requirement to show any of the unseen cards. The shown cards are treated as given in the preceding part of this rule.

7. If everyone checks (or is all-in) on the final betting round, the player who acted first is the first to show the hand. If there is wagering on the final betting round, the last player to take aggressive action by a bet or raise is the first to show the hand. In order to speed up the game, a player holding a probable winner is encouraged to show the hand without delay. If there is a side pot, players involved in the side pot should show their hands before anyone who is all-in for only the main pot.

Player 2 gets the pot, end of story.