[FreckleDaddy]

Nothing new here, but I agree with the rest of the people. Since the shuffling the deck randomized the deck the pre dealt turn and "other turn" had the same chance of being a 5, or any card for that matter. But once the cards were dealt the hand was already "determined." That's why when there's a card exposed when dealing they use it as the burn, the flop will be the same either way.

I will add that if everyone was okay with it, somehow I doubt the guy with the pair of aces wasn't, then it shouldn't really matter.

Fd

[w16227]

Originally Posted by ky70

I don't think any scenerio should involve using the 5 that was flipped as everyone clearly understands that this card was flipped in error AND the appropriate turn card is still available.

If no betting took place after the 5 was mistakenly flipped, I think it would be in the best interest of the game (and the right decsision) to use the appropriate turn card. If betting occurred after the 5 hit the table then more thought may be required.

Not that it's the reason for the error but I personally don't like the pre dealt flop, turn and river thingy...and I sometimes request that it not be done.

Edit: added missing words

we were all in on the flop - so no action

The preflop thing was helping to speed things along. It had been a long night - and the other players were chilling out and not available to help deal. Next time I am sure we will have a predefined rule in place for this situation. I can see how many players may not want to do this (see example above )

[Wooderson]

So W, what did you do?

[krw17]

Originally Posted by w16227

we were all in on the flop - so no action

The preflop thing was helping to speed things along. It had been a long night - and the other players were chilling out and not available to help deal. Next time I am sure we will have a predefined rule in place for this situation. I can see how many players may not want to do this (see example above )

I think since you were all in before the mishap, it meant that judging the reaction to that card was meaningless and no other betting could take place. So, pulling that mis-dealt card and turning up the proper one was the only way to go IMO. I think Robert's Rules would agree. Section 5 #5 states - "5. If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. If there was no betting on a round because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded."Since you skipped all the pre-dealt cards, it is the same as burning more than one card and since no action had been taken, it should be corrected.

[w16227]

OK - neat discussion here.

Most players do not like predealing - I can see that. the only reason we were doing this was it was late - and this headsup was taking forever.

IMO - I was the better headsup player and was willing to take my time with this one. the only really bad mistake that I made was calling one allin bet to let him back in the game. I rivered the st8 - but he had flopped the nut flush and was slowplaying it.

Had many chips in the pot- and did not give him credit for the flush.


Anyway - neither us us really cared about the predealing at that point.


OK - I was the player holding the A. So I was the one kind oif hosed by the card.

I could have forced one of many situations to occur - but chose not to. I let the card stand. Here is why

1. It WAS late and all of us were tired. Not that I was in a hurry to go home, but I really could not come up with a decent solution off the top of my head that was not trying to improve my hand by using the rules.

2. The deal was still random. The card was not accidentaly exposed - the dealer turned it. If it haad been the king of diamonds, neither of us would have cared, so why would we make a big deal about the 5?

3. We both were in the money. If this was a bubble issue, I would have requested that the hand be declared dead.

4. This was a friendly home game. We had a few dealer errors before that were corrected in a non "casino" manner - and that did not affect the game. Once - the flop was "mucked" by the dealer, but there were still 2 players in the hand (he thought it was folded). We retreived the cards and play resumed.

5. I was a guest. Plain and simple - I was not going to use the almighty rules of the game to improve my situation. I was happy - and assume that I will be invited back. If I truly am better than the field, there is more cash to be made later. Heck - I have a psychological edge on this guy now - he knows that he did not outplay me.


I believe that we used the "spirit of the game" concept here. There were 2 other ways to handle this that none of us thouhgt of at the time, but would probably have been better as they leveled the playing field. We could have declared the hand dead (ok - this was a poll option, but we did not think of it) or run it twice.

Running it twice would actually be a legit casino option. They do allow for this in cash games. Would have probably split the pot, but would have allowed for both the predealt cards and the accidentally dealt one to play.

[omar]

Originally Posted by krw17

I think since you were all in before the mishap, it meant that judging the reaction to that card was meaningless and no other betting could take place. So, pulling that mis-dealt card and turning up the proper one was the only way to go IMO. I think Robert's Rules would agree. Section 5 #5 states - "5. If the dealer fails to burn a card or burns more than one card, the error should be corrected if discovered before betting action has started for that round. Once action has been taken on a boardcard, the card must stand. Whether the error is able to be corrected or not, subsequent cards dealt should be those that would have come if no error had occurred. For example, if two cards were burned, one of the cards should be put back on the deck and used for the burncard on the next round. If there was no betting on a round because a player was all-in, the error should be corrected if discovered before the pot has been awarded."Since you skipped all the pre-dealt cards, it is the same as burning more than one card and since no action had been taken, it should be corrected.

This seems pretty cut and dried to me........but JoJo indicated that using the original cards was wrong. JoJo, is there another rule that you used which suggests something different? I am asking just because I have debated certain things before that were interpreted as "grey" areas within the rules, and it bugs me that there exists such grey area, or that people would play that way (kinda like using the old foot wedge in golf). I personally feel that JoJo is probably one of the more "purist" types so I am assuming that there is a different rule or at least a different interpretation of a rule that was used. I would just like to know what it was.

[babujit1]

w16227OK - neat discussion here.

Most players do not like predealing - I can see that. the only reason we were doing this was it was late - and this headsup was taking forever.

IMO - I was the better headsup player and was willing to take my time with this one. the only really bad mistake that I made was calling one allin bet to let him back in the game. I rivered the st8 - but he had flopped the nut flush and was slowplaying it.

Had many chips in the pot- and did not give him credit for the flush.


Anyway - neither us us really cared about the predealing at that point.


OK - I was the player holding the A. So I was the one kind oif hosed by the card.

I could have forced one of many situations to occur - but chose not to. I let the card stand. Here is why

1. It WAS late and all of us were tired. Not that I was in a hurry to go home, but I really could not come up with a decent solution off the top of my head that was not trying to improve my hand by using the rules.

2. The deal was still random. The card was not accidentaly exposed - the dealer turned it. If it haad been the king of diamonds, neither of us would have cared, so why would we make a big deal about the 5?

3. We both were in the money. If this was a bubble issue, I would have requested that the hand be declared dead.

4. This was a friendly home game. We had a few dealer errors before that were corrected in a non "casino" manner - and that did not affect the game. Once - the flop was "mucked" by the dealer, but there were still 2 players in the hand (he thought it was folded). We retreived the cards and play resumed.

5. I was a guest. Plain and simple - I was not going to use the almighty rules of the game to improve my situation. I was happy - and assume that I will be invited back. If I truly am better than the field, there is more cash to be made later. Heck - I have a psychological edge on this guy now - he knows that he did not outplay me.


I believe that we used the "spirit of the game" concept here. There were 2 other ways to handle this that none of us thouhgt of at the time, but would probably have been better as they leveled the playing field. We could have declared the hand dead (ok - this was a poll option, but we did not think of it) or run it twice.

If you left happy and the rest were happy then no worries. You obiviously knew the cards should never be predealt, but everyone wanted things to go faster. The decision made sounds like the right one for the situation at the time, but I would say avoid predealing from now on or fight for the correct solution next time jojo has you back. I see no reason you would not be allowed back at this game you seem like a very stand up guy that everyone would enjoy to play with at there game.

[Pavel6969]

I say it was lucky that you were cool with losing. 99% of the time the person holding the ace would throw the mother of all fits to lose due to a dealer screwup.

[babujit1]

Originally Posted by Pavel6969

I say it was lucky that you were cool with losing. 99% of the time the person holding the ace would throw the mother of all fits to lose due to a dealer screwup.

I would say he hoped he would be back and be able to win what he may of lost that night and more.
We should ask jojo will you have dubya back?

[Dimes]

Originally Posted by w16227

2. The deal was still random.

Then the dealer could deal from the middle of the pack, or from the bottom as he sees fit. These cards are as random as the others. Of course this is not OK. Dealing a random card is a necessary but not sufficient requirement of dealing. You should deal the cards in the right sequence.

In Roberts Rules the principle is quite clear. As far as possible the cards that would have been used without the error should be used. That is an error should not alter more regarding the players hands and the board than absolutely necessary. Of course, you can chose not to use Roberts Rules but using them could avoid confusion as this. I'm astonished you all accepted the outcome. I wouldn't have.

TT